We Were Right! Two Men Kissing & a Bowl of Maggots (Disgust & Sexuality)

Dive into the fascinating discussion between Simone and Malcolm as they explore a revealing study on heterosexual men's disgust response to images of two men kissing and maggots. They analyze the implications of these findings on human sexuality, disgust responses, and cultural norms. From the biological basis of disgust to the role of socialization, this episode covers the layers of human arousal, progressive culture, and societal perceptions. They also touch on unique fetishes, power dynamics, and their own personal experiences. Expect an insightful conversation filled with groundbreaking predictions and thought-provoking insights. [00:00:00] Malcolm Collins: Hello Simone. Today we are going to be talking about a study that came out recently titled What Did Two Men Kissing and A Bucket of Maggots Have in Common? Heterosexual Men's. Indistinguishable salivary, a amylase response to photos of two men, kissing and disgusting images. This is gonna be one of those days where we're gonna go a lot into disgust. Mm-hmm. Sexuality and point out, but yet again, I called it. I called it, everybody said that I was wrong. Everybody said my ideas were crazy. Now everyone agrees with all of my genius. I Simone Collins: think that Donald Trump for some of his press conferences has like an I was right hat. Yes. This is my, I was right, right hat And I think you need to put on your I was right hat. Yeah. We, we need one too. Speaker: We are gonna win so much. You may even get tired of winning and you'll say, please, please, it's too [00:01:00] much winning. We can't take it anymore, Malcolm Collins: I no, I, am I ever gonna get credit for being so effing right all the time? No. No. Am I? No. Is there ever gonna be like the scientist? I love it. That like with, with, with eyes. They literally coined the same term I coined, which was utility convergence. And, and they're like, so we found this weird thing in AI where we get utility convergence and nobody predicted this in the space. And I'm like, I predicted it like literally 10 years ago. What are you talking about? I wrote many papers and things on this. Yeah. Yeah. And this is something that in our, you know, we talk a lot about human sexuality. I'd predicted this, and you're gonna be shocked, you're gonna be shocked by this, but it says a lot about one arousal and disgust work. Mm-hmm. Two. One of the big lies that progressives tell everyone about it. So to read part of the abstract here, participant current study viewed six different slideshows depicting same [00:02:00] sex, PDA, that's public display of affection or, or kissing, mixed sex, PDA, everyday items and disgusting images. This is like bowls full of maggots. Okay? While providing saliva samples in the lab, a series of paired sampled T-test were performed and found that SAA, this is saliva MLAs, which is produced by discussed responses like neurologically. It triggers the release of this enzyme responses to images of same sex men kissing. And universally disgusting images were significantly greater than SAA responses to a slideshow depicting everyday items. So basically we so-called it hold on, hold on. It gets better. It gets better. The results held across the full sample regardless of individuals, individual level of prejudice. Specifically prejudice against gay individuals. The results of the current study suggest that all individuals, not just highly sexually prejudiced individuals, [00:03:00] experience psychological responses indicative of stress when witnessing male, , same sex, couple kissing, Simone Collins: no wait. Did they also try this on gay men? Malcolm Collins: Not in this study, the possibility of socialized disgust response to same-sex PDA is discussed. Basically, let me lay this out for people who didn't catch what this means. It means that the disgust reaction that we have. We being most straight males have when watching two gay men kiss, which is a strong reaction. I talked about it myself and I couldn't get blow back from this. Like I had a gay roommate all through high school. Okay. Because I went to a boarding school in college, like my best friends were gay. I hung out with gay people all the time. I am not like an anti-gay person. I have an extreme to seeing men, kissing men, extreme disgust reaction. And what this is showing is that your acceptance of this is not [00:04:00] tied to your disgust reaction. This has a multiplicative downstream implications. The first being is that one, this disgust reaction is not socialized. This is not because of your religiosity or anything like this. Mm-hmm. Something that you are born with. Mm-hmm. It makes it much more likely that gay individuals and, and, and I, I've noted this in the pragmatist gay sexuality, because I think one of the core mysteries of human sexuality is why male gayness does not appear like female. And it appears like the exact inversion of male straightness. Yeah. Simone Collins: It's not like, yeah. So they're not, they're not sexual like a woman they are. Mm-hmm. They are, gay. They're gay like a man. Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yes. So, so what I mean by this is men, your average straight man has an aversion, a disgust response at the idea of man kissing men. Like grosses them [00:05:00] out. Yeah. And they have an arousal response to the idea of. You know, them kissing a woman. Mm-hmm. Sometimes they actually have a disgust response to seeing other men kiss women, but we'll get into that later. But the point being but they'll always have an arousal response for a woman kissing a woman, basically more guys in a situation, typically the worst it is for your average straight male. Now. No, this isn't always true. But the dis distraction you gave me was comment. Women do not have this response. Yeah. Women is actually fairly rare for a woman to have a disgust response to seeing to women kiss. Simone Collins: Yeah. I mean, welcome to the world of, of Yi. That's Malcolm Collins: right. Surprises no one. You know, women who are consuming that, that you, you mean two men kisses Ywe. Or Simone Collins: I'm saying women are not turned off Malcolm Collins: by men kissing. Right. But men are not turned off by seeing two women kiss, right? Oh, yeah. No, no, no, no, Simone Collins: no. The Malcolm Collins: point I'm making is women are not turned off by seeing two women kissed. They do not have this same disgust response. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:06:00] Seeing people of their gender kiss, which you Simone Collins: also called because women don't really. Oriented. This is something that, so if you haven't checked this out, read the Pragmatist Guide to Sexuality in it, Malcolm Posits that not only is sexuality oriented on an arousal to disgust. Spectrum, but also that men's or sexuality is more oriented around primary and secondary sexual characteristics like boobs and like things sing signaling. That has Malcolm Collins: very little to do with what we're talking about right now. Simone Collins: Well, but, but I'm just summarizing really quickly and that women are not actually that attached to. Gender or sex? It's more about power dynamics. Yeah. It's more about Malcolm Collins: dominance of submission, the dominance. So they wouldn't, it doesn't Simone Collins: really matter to them. If it's like women on women, men on women, and women on, on men. Like any mixture Malcolm Collins: is more tied to arousal than males. So, so the, one of the big mysteries of human sexuality is men, when they're born gay, do not appear to have the standard arousal pathway of a woman. Which is weird, [00:07:00] which honestly makes more Simone Collins: sense because Malcolm Collins: that, I don't know, it just seems weird to me. It doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't make more sense. It's weird really. They appear to have an exact inversion, and you can see this when you survey gay men. Yeah, gay men actually, not as frequently as straight men, but fairly often have the disgusted reaction to females. They have a disgusted reaction to vaginas. Yeah. They have a disgusted reaction. To dress. A lot of people have discussed reaction a lot people, but, but, but I'm pointing out that they have discussed reactions to females. Mm-hmm. Why is effing, why are they getting an inversion of a disgusted reaction instead of the disgusted reaction of the other gender? Like, it almost makes sense to me. I could be like, Simone Collins: no, it doesn't, it doesn't, this, this, the way things are, makes more sense to me. Because if you develop as a male, you're developing like all of the mechanics of the sort of male sexual orientation. It just happens to be that there's a sign clip somewhere. That seems more, more simple to me and more likely than somehow you having like [00:08:00] become exempt from all of the other elements of male sexuality. Right. Malcolm Collins: Well this provides evidence for this showing that the disgust reaction in males. Is biological or like inbuilt? Yes, straight males. So this is much Simone Collins: of you born gay. Malcolm Collins: Yes. It also, it also adds evidence to the you are born gay or straight idea. If a male is having an active, and this is why I've said this in, in males who may not have this response, or males who may be gay, don't understand, why can't you just power through it? The response my body has. To males. Kissing is the response my body has to a bucket of maggots. Like, why don't Simone Collins: you just stick your dick into a bucket of mag maggots that would you, Malcolm Collins: you can learn to like it. But what's important from our series so people know this, is we argue that. Anything that has a disgust reaction. And it happens more frequently in males and females can have a slang flip and accidentally become due to something [00:09:00] during our biological development become an arousal pathway. So there is actually an entire fetish category. Called creepy crawlers tied to stuff like buckets and maggots being like poured on you and stuff like that. And we point out in the book that you do not see sign flips tied to any other response. You don't see sign flips tied to fire. You don't see side flips tied to height. Anything else that has a strongly charged emotional response, you don't see a sign flip with an arousal response unless that response is discussed like dead bodies, infants, you know, all of the things that would cause disgust in a normal person, you're gonna get some small portion of the population. And we also argue that the sign flip, the volume stays the same. So if you have a really high disgust towards something, normally the volume of arousal to that thing is gonna be really high if you get a sign flip. But this also has implications for like progressive culture more broadly. So one, it adds evidence to the theories that we had that this is inbuilt in progressives we're just lying when they're like, I don't get disgusted by this. But. [00:10:00] It also shows that when progressives, and I thought maybe progressives have like maybe somehow trained themselves because like I've been like, you can't get rid of arousal patterns or maybe you can't get rid of disgust. Well, no, I know you can't get rid of disgust patterns either if they're working on the same circuitry, but with a sign flip. That would mean that when progressives are like, well being, thinking fat women are disgusting looking. Which by the way, that's the reason there's a portion of men who are into. Fat women, because generally fat women create a disgust response. And anything that creates a disgusted response, the small fortune of the population is gonna find arousing. But anyway so women who are obese and create this, there, it's like this thing that's like, oh, well you've only been socialized to feel that way. You, you, you don't actually, like, that's a cultural thing. And we see here, no, it's not a cultural thing. Now here I note, and we talk about this in the book, is people will say oh, well, aren't there cultures like random Island cultures or wherever where like obesity and women is seen as a, an arousing thing? No, there are not. That is a complete fiction. Let me explain. There were [00:11:00] cultures where it was reported that people. Chose wives who were more obese historically, but in every single instance when they've gone back and measured those cultures after they became wealthy, that has disappeared and inverted. So what we were seeing there was just obesity being a. Indicator of wealth that was not correlated to the other parts of arousal. And so men were basically like, I'm choosing this woman because she's wealthier. There, there did not appear to be. And, and this is also, we've argued in other videos that arousal likely is correlated to like. I, I'd say ethnic and cultural groups in a way. So it's not even like, it wouldn't even go our, against our theory that in some weird culture on some weird island they had developed an arousal pathway that had evolved. Right? And I'm like, okay, okay. That makes sense. But it appears that this is such a strong signal that no one, no culture has ever evolved. A genuine sign flip [00:12:00] on this. At like a, like a, a, a mainstream level, which is really fascinating. Simone Collins: I also imagine that a lot of these historical cultures that had interest in rotund women were just not emaciated women at this time, and they were seen as fat because. You know, wow, you can afford a few excess calories, and that meant that they were slightly more rounded than the average woman. Mm-hmm. So, I, I mean, I just don't, I don't think the level of overfeeding that we see today is as common though. I also think that the, the sign flip issue that has, has led to fat enthusiasts today would've led to some in the past. And it could be that there were some fat enthusiasts in the past who were also. Malcolm Collins: Oh's, the famous fat enthusiast artist who a lot of people use to argue that Rubens like Ruben. I wouldn't say it's re starts as an R. Ruben Rubens, isn't it? Rubens Ruben. Yeah. And it's very clear he had a fetish, like the women who he chooses, they're the same one who Fat fetishes choose. I'm, I'm Simone Collins: just Google Imaging, Paul Peter, Paul Rubins, and I'm looking at these images.[00:13:00] Are they chubster? I mean not, not by modern standards. Malcolm Collins: Not by modern standards, but it's, contemporaries talked about him as if he was a fetishist, and famous people can be fetishists. One of the things I always point out is well, if he was a chubby chaser. What was the famous Irish writer who liked women farting on him? Simone Collins: Oh yes. Delight. I like your Malcolm Collins: cute Simone Collins: little Malcolm Collins: tootsies Simone Collins: or whatever. Read. Yeah. A letter Malcolm Collins: that he wrote to his lover. Just so good. What was his name again? This was Simone Collins: God, we're so bad with names. I'll Malcolm Collins: find it post. But yeah, you, you see these in the past. That doesn't mean that they were normal. They were still very obviously. Minority arousal patterns. Yeah. And we're not arguing that these minority arousal patterns are modern. I, I do find the issue, and we talked about this in another video, and it's something that like, you know, but what is, what is, what is, we, we sort of debated on this, I assume that attraction to younger phenotypes is clustered in Japanese groups. Like that seems likely to me. I, I, there's some other ones you talked about like attraction to, [00:14:00] like navels and armpits being clustered in Indian groups. Yeah, yeah. I, Simone Collins: there's, there's gotta be Malcolm Collins: a little bit of this going on, you Simone Collins: know, it'd be weird if there wasn't. Malcolm Collins: But well, yeah, it, it, it would be weird if there wasn't, it would also be weird. So keep in mind where we talk about like where dominance and submission gets pulled into this. Mm. Is what we assume is dominance and submission calls arousal because it was just a system that the brain used for dominance and submission displays that humans do. Mm-hmm. Dominance and submission displays are used very frequently in animal species to signal social status. They're not animal species, mammals, social mammals specifically. So think of a dog like showing it's ready to be mounted as a way of saying I'm submissive. Yeah. And we know that this isn't a female male thing because in species where females are the dominant gender, like spotted hyenas they actually develop something called a pseudo penis, which they can use what an erection with to show when they're submissive. So in the same way sometimes male animals will, sort of prepare to be mounted as a way [00:15:00] of showing submission to another male animal. Mm-hmm. Or female animal even in, in cases in species where females as a dominant erections are the way that you show submission. Which I just find absolutely fa. Fascinating. Okay, so, so here's what Grok says on this, okay. Research suggests that fetishes may have heretical components with genetic factors contributing to about half of the ver variation in paraphilic interests. Okay? Rude fetishes. The evidence leads towards a genetic influence, but environmental factors also play a significant role and more research is needed for specific fetishes. Simone Collins: Well, most of your research indicated that environmental factors were not. Influential. Am I for forgetting something? Well, they might Malcolm Collins: mean influential in terms of like changing outcomes. Not influential in like a, I saw this, therefore I developed ex fetish way, like I'm sure a Simone Collins: lot fewer people are gay when that means that you get thrown off a building. For example, that's an environmental factor. Malcolm Collins: No, but I mean, they're still gay. They're still like in the population, right? Yeah. But maybe Simone Collins: that's what Crock is talking about though. Studies Malcolm Collins: on related [00:16:00] sexual behaviors like PDA files show readability estimates at 49%. That's not surprise. No one choose, no one would want to choose to have this arousal pathway. Yeah, that's, that's true. Fetish. I'm sure you could get Simone Collins: any of these people who have that arousal pathway, the chance to undo it, they would undo it so fast. Malcolm Collins: Fetishes are specific sexual purposes and blah, blah, blah. Studies on paraphilias, which encompass fetishes, indicate a genetic component, for instance, a 2015 study and the Journal of Medicine found her the credibility of sexual interest in you. Youth was 49% suggesting a significant gen significant role. A broader meta-analysis from nature Genetics in 2015 reported the average readability of 49% across many human traits, supporting the idea that sexual preferences might also be partially ible. While direct studies on fetishes are limited, the evidence for paraphilias suggests it finishes likely have a her readable component. Though environmental factors like upbringing are also crucial. Disagree on that. [00:17:00] Actually, in our studies on this, they were so shocking to us because I thought that at least like being abused, pre puberty would have an effect on people's adult arousal patterns. And in our data basically nothing that happened to you, even sexual abuse. Affected your adult arousal pattern significantly. They may suppress them a little bit, but that was it. Yeah. Most of what affected your arousal pattern has happened after or around puberty. Simone Collins: Yeah. I think in over the long term, in terms of another, you were right. Thing, I think we're gonna find that I. The, her ability is higher than those that 40% range presented. Yeah. Malcolm Collins: Here's an interesting thing an interesting finding is that in twin studies, which impair identical in fraternal twins show higher similarities of paraphilic interest among identical twins pointing to a genetic link. Even though most research focuses on broader sexual orientation than specific fetishes. Mm. Well, I mean this then would make fetishes less distant from the gay thing than people would say historically, because if you don't have a choice in what your fetishes are, [00:18:00] especially if you're born with them. Mm-hmm. Fascinating. Well, no, if you're born with them, then you can't say that being gay is any different from any other fetish. Simone Collins: Oh, oh, I see your point. Malcolm Collins: So people like, why do we have to be Simone Collins: so accommodating of the gay things? We're not accommodating Malcolm Collins: to put fetishes, right. We're not accommodating to any other fetish category. Simone Collins: I think the, the bigger issue is that most. One, the gay is gay. Being gay is, I think a very different kind of scenario because it typically involves a discussed reaction to a very, very common social institution that until very recently was kind of a default setting for people. Oh. And being forced into that is really hard. It's not like foot fetishists were, you know, also simultaneously disgusted by hands and forced to do you know, manicures every single day. Right. So I, I think it's just, it's sort of a different level and it has to do with major [00:19:00] societal Well, I disagree. I Malcolm Collins: think that there's a lot of fetishes that there is a real normalization around shaming people for, for having, even if they don't hurt anyone else. And that's really unfair if when you consider the, the people say, well, for example, I am find people like pathetic and gross who have like, I don't know, like a, a, a maggots fetish. Remember I, I talked about like the creepy Carly fetish or like, being farted on fetish. Like, James Day Joyce, that's, that's who I think it was. James Joyce. I think you're right. Yeah I find that like creepy, weird and empathetic, and I can mock somebody for that in public and, and somebody would say, well, it's okay because this causes a disgust response in most people. And then I would counter back. I'd be like, yeah, but so does two men kissing. So why does that get carved out as different than this getting carved out as different, i, I, again, I'm not, you know, I, I, I don't know how I feel across the board on this. I'm largely four people being like, look, if you have an unusual arousal pattern, I also wonder if [00:20:00] communities like, okay, consider something like this. Mormons, and we talked about this almost certainly in another episode, like the Mormon, the sharing partner thing must certainly have different arousal patterns than other populations due to their history of one, how they recruited people and two, polyamory. I think so polygamy and I suspected that they likely have a lower discussed response to seeing their, partners kiss other people because wives that had this response didn't have as many offspring likely. And that is why you see more Mormon partner sharing sort of thing. Oh yeah. Culture. Simone Collins: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Malcolm Collins: Where it's like, well, we share when we do everything, but like, you penetration or something, and therefore it's okay. Mm-hmm. So here's what I asked it next. I asked it for ethnically tied fetishes because I was like, is there any evidence for this? Oh, it's saying it can't find it, but it is saying that BDSM seems more common in western countries such as Germany and the Netherlands. BSM Simone Collins: strikes me as so white and also so German. Malcolm Collins: Yeah, so German, it's extremely Simone Collins: German. Malcolm Collins: And then you have the the famous British [00:21:00] Vice, you know, which is A-B-D-S-M related thing being, being submissive as a male, no more like Simone Collins: school teacher spankings. Malcolm Collins: Very interesting. I I love what GR says. Regional observation studies, like ALA's survey suggest that BDMI love just like Simone Collins: name drop other, well, I mean, it was big on, big on X, so, Malcolm Collins: yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Hold on. I, I'm gonna see if I can find any other here. Evidence from cross-cultural studies research. For instance, a study from PMC on ethnic differences in sexual attitudes among US college students found that Asians reported more conservative sexual attitudes compared to Euro-Americans and Hispanics, but did not address fetishes. Similarly, a study from HRAF on sexuality noted that society very widely in their tolerance of non reproductive sex, but did not provide data on fetishes. A notable exception was alas 2022 survey, which analyzed fetish preference by region including North America, Western Europe, et cetera. The survey was 10,000 responses from some regions found that BDSM.[00:22:00] And age play were more popular in North America and Western Europe while foot fetishes showed relative consistent prevalence across regions. However, this data is based on self-reported surveys, blah, blah, blah. All pretty much all sexual data is, I love when it like dismisses a-list studies. I'm like, where do you think all this other data is coming from? Simone Collins: Come on. She has amazing sample sizes. Her selection bias is, is quite low because she sources outside of just people who follow her. She uses positively to get really good representative audiences. I'm ugh, ala, does not get the credit she deserves. Someday. Malcolm Collins: Oh, oh, this is interesting. BDSM and company named Bondage discipline. Everyone know that? Okay. Byta Bell's 2024 report of over 12,700 individuals found 86% of Americans had either tried BDSM or expressed interest. Well, I mean, yeah, after 50 Shades Simone Collins: of Gray taking off so much, can you be so surprised? Malcolm Collins: Well, yeah, I mean 50 Shades of Gray I think showed that was in [00:23:00] Europe and America. This is a normal AFA pattern of women. They may Simone Collins: not be getting it, but they want it. Malcolm Collins: We've had other videos on this where like stuff on this, think men are driving this whenever. Yes. Men have to abuse us. And I'm like, you can look at the data. Men actually don't, 'cause it's a lot of work. They actually don't. Well, so it's not that no. Men do, actually men do get aroused by hurting women, subjugating women dominating women but they do not get aroused by it as frequently as women get aroused by it. Simone Collins: Yeah. And the, the primary driver of demand for this, I think is. Is is men, I'm sorry, is women. Women are the ones who are like, I wanna see material like this. It shows, it shows up all the time in romance novels. These like power dynamics, these quasi abusive relationships, these questionable behaviors. Like, and not even in a, you know, what we would call like modern BDSM context in which the sub is ultimately the one with all the power [00:24:00] rules. So yeah, women actually don't even want that. They're like, no, no, don't, don't do that. Malcolm Collins: That's really fascinating. What is, well, I wonder like, I'd love for ala to do more on this to find out, like, because we've gone over the chart before from her that shows when Paraphilias or fetishes age of onset is uhhuh. So that would be really interesting. I, I would guess that the age of onset of Paraphilias likely correlates with how arousing they are. Actually, let's look up a ALA's age of onset of paraphilias chart. Gaps between trans and cis fetish onset. Oh, this is interesting. Here's a list of difference in years between, okay. Okay, that's interesting. Age of onset. Okay, so if we're looking across here, which fetishes have earlier age of onsets? Tattoos, body mod, skinness, et cetera. Very young age of onset, 13.1. Body parts normal. Non non genitals. So this is like, knees, armpits, head hair, et cetera. Okay. But then other ones that have been very [00:25:00] early age of onset are things like brutality and violence. This has an age of onset of 14.2. So that's really interesting is incest has an early age of onset 14.4. I could see that being hereditary because you do see it occurring more within certain subcultures. And then some have very, I don't know, interestingly, the latest age of onset is reproduction, pregnancy, surrogacy, AVI position, et cetera. 16.9 is when that starts. Simone Collins: That's interesting. There does seem to be a, a bigger IC reaction among adolescents to anything child related, so maybe that. It is connected. I don't know. Yeah, Malcolm Collins: I don't know. I'm, I'm looking at these here, and this doesn't ring true for me, that Jevan said is, is connected to how hereditary it is. But maybe, I mean, it would make sense that incest arousal patterns in communities that relied on incest for reproduction would appear at a young age. 'cause those communities would likely also begin engaging in, in sexuality at a younger age. But, [00:26:00] like reproduction almost certainly has some like the people who get turned on by that, some correlation to genetics. I'd be pretty surprised if it didn't. And I'd also be pretty surprised that things like humiliation didn't given, and, and that's one of the later ones is at 15.6. I, I'd also note that they, oh no. Humiliation Simone Collins: just seems to me to be like one manifestation of interest in power dynamics, which is extremely pervasive. Malcolm Collins: Hmm. Anyway, very, very interesting statistics there. And I, you must be so Simone Collins: satisfied to be validated in your research. Malcolm Collins: Yeah, it's really cool that I make predictions years before they begin to become validated by the field, and then the field begins to validate them. And one day somebody will come out there and be like, I discovered that arousal and disgust are actually using the same fundamental system and this is how, and I I, I'd be like, Malcolm came up with all of this years ago. But it also shows that when progressives pretend to not be disgusted by something, when progressives pretend to not be like ed by [00:27:00] something, it is just that they are pretending this is not real. They are actually even the most tolerant person. And I actually think that this is a bad thing because what it leads people to believe is. I am accepting of this population, yet I still feel gross when I see them do this. Therefore, there must be something wrong with this population. I mean, that's what disgust evolved in us to, to instigate, right? Like disgusted at like a person with leprosy or something who's like falling apart. It was Simone Collins: about, it was about personal safety and then there's this big problem. Discuss Malcolm Collins: your bodies and poo and everything like that. Yeah. Continue. Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. But then there's also the problem of people. Intuitively though it's not always correct, associating disgust with poor morality. And I think, I mean, you, you see this more with spoken versus unspoken progressive behaviors around race, where like, they're like, oh, you know, like other, other races that are not white are really, really important. We have to protect them. And yet they, like, they don't hire them, they don't work with them. They, they [00:28:00] don't live with them. And then, you know, on the other hand, like conservatives don't have anything to say and yet. They hire them, they work with them, they live with them. Like there, there's by, by Malcolm Collins: the way, to, to get an idea of how bad this is, there was a recent study done on DEI positions and only 3.8% of DEI positions are held by Africans Classic, African Americans. This is, this is. Hilarious. That's, well less than their percentage in the population, and it just shows that this is like a white woman thing. The entire field of this progressive urban monoculture is white women. I love the white women for Harris thing, you know? So good. That was such a moment. Yeah, amazing. It turned out that they were the only ones who supported Harris. The, the Hispanics were not super excited. Blacks voted for her less than Biden keep on Blacks voted for her. They, they, they did not like Harris. Well, there was that Simone Collins: famous like black journalist meeting during the election when Trump spoke with them, you know, was willing to speak with what he expected to be a fairly antagonistic audience. [00:29:00] Yeah. And he's like, oh yeah, you know? Yeah. Now, now Kamala's black when it's convenient for her. And the progressive and mainstream media rolled that quote out again and again to be, to, to, to act as though this was an outrageous thing. But you actually hear chuckles from the audience. Yeah. It's not dead silence. They're kind of like, I Malcolm Collins: mean, yeah. Very interesting. I, I completely agree. And I think that that was, that was really interesting. So do you have any other, discuss, anything change for you on learning that the progressive men who say they're not experiencing it are most likely lying? Simone Collins: You know, it, it just reminds me of, of how my progressive upbringing was, where there were a lot of things that secretly discussed me. And I had to pretend that I was okay with them. And that was really, you know, it was really tough and it, it honestly led to poorer mental health because [00:30:00] I felt there was a variety of things that I wished I could do something about, like, ugh, I really, you know, don't, I don't wanna do this, I don't wanna go here, but if I, if I avoid going here or if I don't do this thing, it will involve an admission, even if it's an unspoken admission that I have a problem with this thing. And therefore I'm not, like, my values aren't right. You know, I need to, I need to Malcolm Collins: yeah. Simone Collins: Like correct myself. And it, it caused a lot of stress and a lot of cognitive dissonance. And after meeting you and after sort of getting permission to feel what I felt, I just felt so much relief. And I, and we, we just did another episode on mental health and progressives being poor. And I, I do think that's a part of it is just maybe part of the reason why progressive mental health is worse is that there's more. More of them are forced to lie to themselves in a way that causes cognitive dissonance and and distress, and it prevents them from addressing problems that would be fairly easy to address. Malcolm Collins: Absolutely. Yeah. [00:31:00] Yeah. Anyway what am I eating for dinner tonight? Tonight is taquitos. Simone Collins: Thank you. You did Malcolm Collins: great. Taquitos. Are you gonna put some cheese in? Obviously. Make it extra sharp. What cheese Simone Collins: do we have? Ooh, Malcolm Collins: I, I don't Simone Collins: know if we have extra sharp cheese. You can use the cheese I bought at the store. Yeah, actually, so you didn't realize this, I guess, but you had an open one of those already. No, I didn't use some of that. You think it'd be okay? It's a hard cheese, isn't it? I mean, it maybe it melts. I dunno how it melts. Do you know how it melts? It melts. It does. Okay. I just, I haven't worked with that kind of cheese before. I will finally grate it using a, a lemon zester. And even if it doesn't melt, it doesn't need to be grated. Like I, I can bite into cheese, but it's taquitos if you can't roll them. You know, it's like a sharp shard of cheese breaks, the delicate corn tortilla. Malcolm Collins: Whatever you Simone Collins: want. This is how dare you. No, this has to be done right. We can't use American cheese though. So [00:32:00] we will find a way. We will find a way. Malcolm Collins: What a sweet baby. She is. Very sweet. Love you to death. Simone Collins: I love you too. Thanks for, thanks for being a shot caller. It's one of the things we respect most in this world, and I love it about you. Okay. Speaking of ozone, by the way, I was just listening to this Andrew Huberman podcast episode in which he speaks with a dentist, like a dental specialist, and she uses ozone in her dental treatments, which is really interesting. Like when she's putting sealants on teeth, she'll use ozone to make sure that there's no. Hm. Like bacterial growth or something. Really just like Malcolm Collins: that. Good at killing bacteria. We, we recently No, it, it's Simone Collins: antiviral. It's antibacterial, it's antifungal. So this is, it's the best. So the reason why people don't use ozone gas more in their homes to remove odors and. Kill bacteria and bugs and other things is one, if you have house plans, they're gone. [00:33:00] Two, it can, through prolonged exposure, cause degradation of wires, rubber, and some fabrics. So it's, it's not something you wanna use every day, every week I. You know, it's maybe once a year in a room once every six months. Malcolm Collins: But you, you had a, a bedbug scare because of the hotel we were at. Mm-hmm. You had bites that looked like bedbug bites and then you just ozone everything after that. Nuked it, not deal with it. Simone Collins: Nook it, nook it, nook it. Yes. And I'm so glad. Yeah. We got, we bought ourselves an ozone machine on Amazon during the pandemic at the behest of one of our friends who thought that it would be really effective and we kind of never used it and I'm so glad we had it. I'm so, and also our rooms. Really smell fresh now, so it's great. This is a public episode. If you would like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com