Vibhu Norby and Degen Poet - DRiP

Our guests this week are Vibhu Norby and Degen Poet. Vibhu is the founder of DRiP, a platform that allows users to receive free NFT collectibles, commissioned from artists and projects across the landscape of crypto. The project has grown exponentially since its inception, with over 300,000 wallets receiving at least one NFT a week. Degen Poet, a prolific artist on Solana, has been a key collaborator on the project.  Vibhu and Degen Poet discuss how DRiP is changing the game for NFTs and why the first experience people have with blockchain should be through art. Plus, they share their unique processes for creating and distributing NFTs, and why they choose to plant their flag in Solana.   Show Notes: 0:56 - Latest News 3:05 - What is Drip?         5:22 - Origin story of Degen Poet, starting working in Solana and Vibh 10:13 - Workflow with NFTs 12:54 - Working with other artists 16:01 - How Drip helps Degen Poet’s work 17:51 - Only on Solana 21:42 - How is drip breaking phantom? 22:50 - Future looking like Instagram 26:53 - Platforms like Drip vs. traditional mediums 30:40 - Things to change /have changed in the industry     33:52 - A builder they admire in the Solana ecosystem?   Full Transcript: Brian Friel (00:00): Hey, everyone and welcome to the Zeitgeist, the show where we highlight the founders, developers, and designers who are pushing the Web 3.0 Space forward. I'm Brian Friel, developer relations at Phantom. And I'm super excited to reintroduce our first repeat guest, Vibhu Norby, as well as Solana's very own Degen poet, Vibhu and DP, welcome to the show.   Vibhu Norby (00:27): What's up? Thanks for having me back.   Degen Poet (00:30): Hey, thanks so much for having us.   Brian Friel (00:32): Vibhu, I mentioned this before recording, but you're a friend of the pod. You're the first official repeat guest of the Zeitgeist, and the last time we had you on was October of last year and you were working on Solana Spaces, which was a really big and audacious project I'd say, and a lot has happened since then and you're still working on big and audacious projects on Solana. Can you walk us through what has changed in the last couple months and what are you working on today?   Vibhu Norby (00:56): Good times, good memories. Yeah. What happened in between October and now? What changed? Funnily enough, Drip actually started that same month. We actually started sending NFTs to people starting with Vincenzo in late October. I think we did two drop before Breakpoint. Yeah, things were going fine and then our world got flipped upside down once again by those who must not be named. For a couple months there, I think we were trying to figure out how we were going to continue to operate the stores. Obviously Phantom was a major benefactor of spaces along with Solana Foundation, but they who must not be named were also major sponsors and it was kind of the three pillars of our business and one of them got pulled out. And simultaneously with all of that, Drip was blowing up and changing everything for us internally. Coming into January, every single week we were stacking at 15, 20% week-over-week growth on the list organically.   (01:51): And between December 1st and the shutdown of Spaces, our Twitter following more than doubled and all of the new growth were people coming to us for stuff related to Drip. And so I was spending my time going between doing customer service for Drip, talking to artists, and then the store was starting to feel like it was losing its voice a bit kind of naturally in that. Yeah. I mean as much as we loved it for a bunch of different reasons, it just made sense for us to take this traumatic pivot from physical retail stores to free NFTs. I think it was a really good decision. I think one of my best decisions so far in life because since we closed down Spaces, Drip has grown five, six x since then. We've really greatly expanded the product and kind of the vision for it and I think we're making a big impact on Solana and crypto in general.   Brian Friel (02:45): You mentioned that this was born out of Solana Spaces originally, it was almost just this separate side thing you were doing and became this absolute beast that had to be unleashed. For those who aren't familiar with what Drip is, can you describe what Drip is, how it operates today, and then maybe talk a little bit about the scale that you guys are currently operating at?   Vibhu Norby (03:05): Yeah, sure. Really simple value prop. You sign in with Phantom, you get an invite code and you start getting free collectibles. You can kind of engage with the product as much or as little as you want. By default, you get a free collectible from us every Wednesday and those collectibles are NFTs and they're real on chain Solana NFTs and we commission those pieces from artists and projects, not just now within Solana but across the landscape of crypto. And we pay for the airdrop costs and it's totally free. It's one of the few things in all of our industry that starts at free, ends at free. You don't need any tokens in your wallet, you don't have to go through KYC with an exchange. More recently, a couple months ago in March, we started adding these additional lists that you could subscribe to. Degen Poet was number one, but since then we've added another seven creators and we launched two new streams every Friday.   (03:57): Those work the same way. You sign up for an individual creator that you love, can be an artist, could be a brand, could be NFT project, a video creator, influencer. They send you free collectibles on some regular basis and you can collect them, you can trade them, you can hold them, you can brag to your friends about what you got. In terms of growth, we've continued to grow 10, 15% a week even at a very big size now. There's two kind of stats that kind of matter. One is we consider non-fraudulent wallets as many people tried to farm Drip in the past. That number in real time right now is 300,000 and we're sending out at least 300,000 NFTs a week on showcase right now. But in total, every single week across all of our creators now, we're sending well over a million collectibles every single week. This is unbelievable groundbreaking stuff. It's not happening anywhere else in our industry, but people fall in love with Drip every single day. It's been awesome.   Brian Friel (04:49): Yeah. I've been a day one subscriber of Drip. I love it. It's such a delightful thing to have all this new art coming in your inbox every day. You kind of hinted at this only possible at Solana, which I want to dive into too. But you did mention there, Degen Poet, and I'd be remiss if we didn't introduce Degen Poet now to the show. I think if you're a listener and you've been around the Solana space, especially on Twitter, you've seen Degen Poet, I'd say one of the most prolific artists on Solana for some time now. Degen Poet, for those who don't know, can you introduce who you are, how you got started on Solana, and then how you also started working with Vibhu?   Degen Poet (05:22): I guess I'm Degen Poet. I live in Chicago with my wife and a couple dogs. I got started in Solana in the summer of 2021. I was just basically doing trading and stuff in Bitcoin and then trading all the other coins. I did some leverage trading on CuCoin and then found Solana through the whole Sam Coins DeFi on Solana first. I think Radium was my first stop. That's kind of my first experience with it all. I thought NFTs were garbage and a silly idea and all those things. I had probably been out of poetry for, I don't know, seven or eight years at that point. I did all of my college education and got an MFA in poetry and then just decided that it wasn't a great career path as far as the money you could make and what you had to do to support yourself as a poet is pretty difficult in the real world.   (06:16): I gave that up and just kind of did business for a living, did computers, Excel, stuff like that. That's how I kind of made a living and then found Solana through all this. I started buying some stuff on Digitalize. I bought a Solana Monkey, a viking I think pretty early on and papered it way too early. But I think it was at that point where I decided maybe I should try poems as NFTs just because nobody else was doing it. I figured it'd at least be a unique way to try. The first thing I got started on was gmu poems, which was basically an NFT, which was a list of words. And at the time they were going really hot because they were based on this Eth derivative of something called Loot, I think. But I was mad at it because I was like, how is it worth so much money and doing so great? And it's literally just a random list of words, but instead of being mad at it, I decided to kind of embrace it and then just filled in the spaces between the words with poems.   (07:11): And I did 200 of those in a month and that's how I got my start on Solana. And then just was making NFTs nonstop ever since, mainly through Exchange Art, doing one of one art. And then over the last year or so since Editions opened up, did additions on exchange art, and then that all just kind of led me to Vibhu and Drip. I really like serving a large audience with art. I mean that was always really fun with Editions. And then with Additions, I wanted to deliver them at a low cost, but that just invites bots to basically come in and flip your stuff. Bots were making way more money than I was off my art just because of the setup, you know what I mean? That's, I think, what intrigued me about Drip is I could achieve this thing that I wanted, which was giving art to all these people on Solana for free basically. And then there's no real bots, everyone's trying to sign up as an individual and gets it airdropped. It's not like a mint. Yeah, I think that's kind of where it all started and how it all made sense for the way that I was distributing my art.   Brian Friel (08:12): Yeah, you hit on a lot there. I think that journey of trying out Solana for the first time, this new primordial soup of ecosystem projects and then this totally irrational NFT market, everyone gets dive into it. I think a lot of people can resonate that picture.   Vibhu Norby (08:26): Right. I got to interject here because Degen Poet just introduced himself for five minutes and not one time did he mention the word typewriter, which is what he's most famous for of all things is that he didn't say the word typewriter.   Brian Friel (08:42): Yeah.   Vibhu Norby (08:43): But how did you find a typewriter? Just tell us that quickly.   Degen Poet (08:47): Let's see here. I was cleaning out my sister's ex-husband's parents' basement and we found a typewriter when I was in college, and I think I just got really into them at that point because I was doing poetry and stuff and just would smoke tobacco pipes and type on a typewriter pretending I was some guy. I think that's where it all started. And then it picked back up again around Solana or whatever. My wife bought me a typewriter as an anniversary present. That was the first one that I really beat the crap out of for Solana. That's, I guess, what started it. From poems to trying to make something visually more appealing is really what it all clicked with. With NFTs specifically, I started out with just Photoshop and text and I needed some way of making it visually more appealing because that's how you get sales. But that basically took me from a poet to someone who makes art with a typewriter was kind of because people really pretty pictures on NFTs and turns out I like making them. There you go.   Brian Friel (09:51): I think Vibhu brings up a great point there. I mean, Degen Poet I think is prolific and well known for having this unique process with a typewriter. If you could expand a little bit on that, Degen Poet, how do you go about creating these collections and is there anything that you do with Drip in particular that is different from either your normal flow or other flows that you know of of NFT artists on Solana?   Degen Poet (10:13): Yeah. I mean I guess one of my main things that I've sort of been consistent with are the profile pictures. As a legendary, I'll take an existing Solana profile picture and just kind of do a typewriter version of those. For that process, I basically sketch a version of the profile picture with a pen, and then those were sort of my guides for the typewriter. I've done it freehand on the typewriter before, but you're only exposing a small portion of the paper at a time and it's really hard to get the proportions right. It's helpful to kind of map them out with a pen or marker sketch first. And then I do go through with a detailed typewriter version of it. I try to pull in words or traits or something to do with the NFT as part of the words that make up the image just as a piece of interest if you zoomed in.   (11:03): And then I'll print out another copy of that. I'll do another sketch or sometimes I'll just paint on the typewriter piece itself and I'll use oil pastels or watercolor. At the end of the day I'm layering two scans. One of them is basically just the typewriter ink and then another one is this sort of painted version and I layered them on top of each other so you get a colored version of a typewriter piece, and that's kind of how all the profile pictures start. I think that's definitely pretty unique, just using all the physical pieces and really trying to make it all from physical scans versus any sort of digital pieces. And then anything digital is really for animation. Sometimes I'll type out every single frame and I'll make individual frames physically for everything that I'm animating. Other times I'll just cut out a piece of the eye or a piece of a lip or something like that on Photoshop and move it around, save a few different images or change colors or something. I do some Photoshopping to get the pieces animated, which I think just kind of adds another level to it. Typewriter is such an old physical looking thing. And so it's interesting, I think, to see it in an animation style. That's something I've really leveled up with Drip. I feel like I've done way more animations with Drip than any of my art sort of previously.   Brian Friel (12:22): You hit a lot there throughout the intro and throughout describing your process, but basically this journey, I think a lot of people resonate with coming to Solana, seeing this fragmented NFT landscape ripe with speculation. That doesn't always make sense, but I think Drip's unique in that it's changing all these models, it's flipping them on their head. Vibhu, can you speak a little bit to who you're working with? Who are these artists that are now reaching out to you? I think you've proven this model with the Degen Poet, but when you talk to artists on Solana, what's attractive to Drip for them?   Vibhu Norby (12:54): Yeah. I want to touch on something that you reminded me of, which is that the transition from Spaces to Drip, although on the surface is very jarring, the thing that kind of ties them together was that when we were meeting people in real life trying to introduce them to blockchains, what we found time and time again was that it was the art and the PFPs that were resonating with people in the store. It wasn't all the other stuff. And yet the way that most people have gotten into here is through an exchange where it's all about trading. And so I put this on Twitter many times, but things would be different today and they will be different in the future if the first experience that people have of this amazing technology is art, right? It's la piece from Degen Poet. It just changed everything. What am I looking for in artists?n   (13:38): I probably talk to between 20 and 30 artists every single week, artists, projects, creators, and we probably filled about 100 requests per week, I would say right now. We have a really high bar. There's only three slots per week now. There's a showcase and there's two channels. And we book these things out for months in advance. The thing that resonates to me the most is artists that see themselves as more than just putting their pen or their paintbrush on paper, whatever their medium is, but as content creators as well. I think what attracted me to Degen Poet for a long time and I think why people love Degen Poet, yeah, the art is really good and I think that has to be there, but there's a lot of really good art. It's Degen Poet's personality. It's how that comes out in his work.   (14:22): It's how he tells a story around his pieces. He publishes videos of the typewriter itself and the creation process. To me, we definitely have an eye for these kind of super artists who are brand building for themselves and have a vision for how to take care of their community in addition. To me, I mean, there's a lot of amazing artists in the world and if you just take blockchain out of it, you can walk into any gallery and see these incredible things. But there's this disconnect between the thing that you're buying and the person that made it and you. And in crypto, it gives this opportunity to cut out that piece and just connect directly with the creator. And if the creator takes advantage of that, that's very attractive to us. That tells me that they're thinking differently about what crypto can add to them. We have a pretty high bar, to be honest.   (15:08): I mean I think we could fill up Drip with illustration and other techniques. There's a lot of amazing photographers, but I think at least in the early stages here, we have the opportunity to be curatorial a bit and relentlessly, we've been programming out our new channels trying to bring something different to the table each week. I think if you fast forwarded a year, it's going to be full of the same stuff that Instagram is full of and other big networks, it's just kind of natural. But right now we have an opportunity to keep a vision for what a collectible can kind of be. I don't know. I kind of know when I see it, but that's probably my framework.   Brian Friel (15:44): Yeah. You hit on a couple things there with, not just just filling with great art, but the way that this can change the relationship between an artist and their fans. Degen Poet, from your experience, how has working with Drip influenced both the way that people discover your content, but also the relationships that you have with your collectors? Yeah,   Degen Poet (16:01): Yeah. I mean it definitely makes it a much wider net, which is nice. They have a larger community to gather around. It feels like everyone who's kind of a channel in Drip is part of a little club or group or something. And so a lot of the same collectors will collect from multiple channels across Drip and things like that. There's more going on than just my art, but it still feels like a piece of a larger community. Everyone's kind of bringing a different style of Drip to the table. It takes less pressure off of my shoulders where I have to have my own Discord or be so focused and all these things. I could do that if I wanted, but I don't have to. Drip is big enough and has enough engagement from the tools that they provide that it helps sustain that better than I could than when I was alone.   (16:47): And yeah, I guess you get a lot more people, right. You really do get people who would never have bought my art. And it's not because they didn't like it, they probably couldn't afford it or they didn't really know about it, but they happened to get in through Drip. And so get new people who earnestly really enjoy the art because that's how they found it. They found it from something free, they weren't trying to flip it and that's how they found it. Yeah, I don't know. It definitely casts a wider net and I feel you do boil up more people that just truly enjoy what you do versus the other side. Yeah, that's been great for that.   Brian Friel (17:23): Yeah. I want to pause here and just dive into a topic that we mentioned briefly at the start, which is Solana. Degen Poet, you described your journey to finding Solana and I mentioned that I think if anyone's been around crypto Twitter, they know who you are. Prolific typewriter artist of Solana. Vibhu, you've been deeply involved with Solana for over a year and now. Why do you guys plant your flag in Solana, and what about Solana is able to make this a reality where no other blockchain can really do what Drip is doing?   Vibhu Norby (17:51): I'm trying to refashion myself a little bit in our narrative because I mean you'll see on our Twitter page and on our site, occasionally we'll talk about Solana, but we've been trying to focus on the collectibles. I mean even with NFTs, I've eliminated using that word on our corporate account entirely in very specific cases. I don't think anybody on the consumer side really cares about that. But from the builder's perspective, two aspects. One is that they pioneered the state compression model, which allows us to do NFTs at a very, very big scale relative to the old version for a very low cost, a couple $100 per million, totally affordable for a business like us. And I think the second thing is that Solana has a really active developer community and some really amazing devs inside of it that are hunting for things to build.   (18:35): And it's really competitive too. All the infrastructure around anything new on Solana develops fast. Perfect example of that is Tensor. We went live with it March 22nd, three months ago, and it's certainly been a couple weeks, maybe two or three weeks because they went live with trading on there. And it's an amazing experience and people can trade these compressed NFTs, 200 at a time and there's a brand new kind of thing, right. But it's not just them, there's B Man who built this tool called PopKey, it's Keerel who built the Drip tracker. There's just all these amazing 10X engineers, if you will, itching to be involved and be part of the Solana community. And we feel like anything that we can't get to, someone else is just going to build anyway. And hey, when we're ready, maybe we'll pick it up. Or maybe that tool just kind of develops its own path and we don't have to touch it.   (19:28): And that thing is unique to crypto too because all of our NFTs are composable. It just really does. We're kept to such a high bar of development 'cause if we don't reach that bar, then three other companies are going to recreate what we're doing, do it better, and then people also going to just take our content and then do it better on top of our content and our data. I don't know about other chains, maybe they have that too, but I've just observed that Solana is, because of the size of our community and the energy there, seems to attack these things with a lot of vigor that I didn't see, at least in Ethereum when I was first getting into this space.   Brian Friel (20:02): No, I couldn't agree more. I think Solana has carved out its own kernel of a genuine dev community. It's a double-edged sword like you say, because it's highly composable and you have this great force everyone will want to build with you, but it invites a lot of competition where if you do slack, there will be people who will take what you do and run with it. But I think so far you guys have done a really great job of really leading in this vertical of Solana. DP, do you have anything to add to what Vibhu said with respect to Solana, maybe from an artist's perspective?   Degen Poet (20:31): As far as only possible on Solana, I definitely think it comes down to the compressed NFT. You can't cost effectively drop a million NFTs a week on any other blockchain, not even close to a 1,000X, not even close. I think that's the core of it that allows us to be different on Solana. But then all that other stuff, the unspoken kind of stuff is just the energy of the people here on the chain and the fact that Tensor and all the rest, not only do you have to be able to mint one million NFTs a week for low cost, but you also have to have people that can build stuff to do with them. And that is, I think, an underappreciated aspect of Solana. And I feel like Drip, from my perspective, all we have to do is just kind of continue growing the market for compressed NFTs, continue add channels and add people kind of doing stuff with compressed NFTs and then Solana will provide. As you get bigger and there's more market, more people want something, then Solana starts to make those things happen. I think we'll see that and that will be incredible.   Vibhu Norby (21:32): I'm going to flip it back to you, Brian, as well. How is Drip breaking Phantom and what does Phantom need to address?   Degen Poet (21:37): Yeah. When can I hold 5,000 NFTs please?   Vibhu Norby (21:38): There you go.   Brian Friel (21:41): Yeah, no, I would say from a dev perspective at Phantom side, we were early to support compressed NFTs, but it's almost a naive assumption that hey, we ship support and we'll be good because it basically is opening Pandora's box where now people just go wild whenever they're given a new medium to express with this kind of stuff. And we saw it firsthand with Tensor launching their NFT marketplace. We're getting requests, why can't I sign 5,000 transactions at once? You guys can't simulate 5,000 different transactions, but it makes us go back to basically first principles and what is the wallet being used for here? How should we be basically specializing the wallet and what do our users really want this for? And I think, Vibhu, you painted a great story at the start of this where eight months ago, the world was ending for all of Solana, they who should not be named. And in six to eight months, you've gone from that state to completely bootstrapping an organic network with hundreds of thousands of users who love and use this product every day.   (22:34): How do we stay adaptable enough for that, huge question and a huge challenge and was really the fun of what's working in this space I think is all about. Vibhu, you mentioned a little bit too on the future of, I think you hinted a year out from now looking like Instagram. Can you say more about that?   Vibhu Norby (22:49): Yeah. Depending on the day I wake up and I think about YouTube or Instagram or Twitch or Patreon or Roblox or you name it. There isn't a perfect analogy for this stuff because it kind of is a blend of a lot of different things. I mean literally every single day we're trying to address a problem in our product and we search for some mental model from some other place and see if that kind of makes sense. And not all of it does, but Instagram is such a simple product to talk about because it is a simple product. Everybody, not just creators, but normal people post photos to their feed or stories and then you follow their friends and you follow the celebrities or influencer, whatever that you like and that stuff shows up in your feed. And you think nothing of it. Okay, I go about my day, I open the app, I click something and I'm good, I'm happy, I close it.   (23:43): But what's sitting underneath of Instagram is this advertising industrial complex that is calculating an enormous amount of data for every single thing that you do on the app. You open the story, how long did you open the story for? How many people are you connected to that also did the same thing? They're building profiles. I used to work on this stuff. I know this is what we do. Yeah, there's a reason for it. I don't think it's bad. I don't think advertising is bad. I want to put that out there. I know Anatolia thinks it's evil and it's part of the reason why he talks about Solana as the anti-spam control network, but it is good for small businesses, but the group that gets abused in that situation are the users and the creators that actually use the app. You go talk to any creator on any network that's not on the top 1% and they're making almost no money from these things.   (24:33): We have an artist that's launching tomorrow called Bangers. He has 200,000 on Instagram. He has three and a half billion views of her content on Giffy. 'Cause she makes all these animated gifs and she told me that she made $20 from Giffy and almost nothing from Instagram ever. I mean we just don't think about it. But people build their livelihoods and businesses on these social platforms and increasingly so. I mean young people today, you ask them what they want to be when they grow up, it's not a firefighter. They want to be content creators, they want to be YouTubers, they want to be TikTokers, literally what they want to do. But when we examine these platforms and how they treat all of the kind of participants in that ecosystem, you just see this thing where all the power and all the money is aggregating inside of these couple of companies, ByteDance with TikTok, Facebook, Google, Amazon.   (25:28): The trifecta of these trillion-dollar companies. Where I want to take Drip is, hey, let's take that model that we know people because people like to just follow someone and see their content, but let's start to tweak the internal economics of each of these components and do it in a way that over the next couple years, creators can make more money from this stuff. Even users might be able to make money, which is a very new concept, but it's something that is normal in crypto and just not normal in Web 2.0. If we can successfully build a model that's better, there's no reason why creators won't come over, it's just an awareness thing. Can we get the word out and can we make this easy to use and safe? I don't know if that's Instagram or it's YouTube or whatever. Instagram is the easiest thing to talk about. I think Drip is a really big idea. I hope that there's many other entrepreneurs that are looking at what we're doing and thinking, hey, maybe this kind of thing could apply in other categories too, and together we can come after these conglomerates, give the power back to the people and that would be a beautiful thing.   Brian Friel (26:31): I couldn't agree more. Degen Poet, when you hear that and you take into consideration everything you told us about your journey starting on these fragmented marketplaces and everything and now everything that you've been doing with Drip, how do you think your relationship with Drip will evolve? Do you foresee the majority of your art being now distributed via platforms like these versus traditional mediums?   Degen Poet (26:52): Yeah, for sure. Solana NFTs in the first place gave me a place for my art. I tried to be a poet in the real world and didn't really see the value in it even to publish a book and to get nothing back and to spend all the money to publish it, that kind of thing. Just NFTs and Solana in general as a first step was incredible to me to be able to make any kind of money off of my art period. And then that is what led me to become an artist. I wasn't making pictures or whatever before this, so it allowed me to exist as an artist in the first place. And then I guess I got hungry for the idea that you could live off this as a career or something. For me, I guess, I just want to create a space where people after me, people around me can do this seriously as 50% or more of their income for their lives.   (27:45): I guess that's what I want to continue to push on at Drip, things like donations, et cetera, but finding a way to make them work and have them be something on a consistent basis that again, another artist can use that model and create a source of income that's reasonably dependable. A weekly Drip of donations I think is way more sustainable and understandable than when you're going to sell in your next auction. You sort of have a steady growth than all the rest of it. And so I don't know, it's just a better model to actually build a true career off of. Yeah, I don't know. For me, continue to find ways to take advantage of Drip and put all my work there that makes sense. I still have some one-on-ones outside of Drip, but I might even incorporate those into Drip someday. Yeah. I mean for me, as long as they let me Drip, I'm dripping. As long as the door is open for me, that's what I'm going to do for sure. Yeah.   Vibhu Norby (28:43): Degen Poet is actually more close to the prototypical Solana artist than you would think. When I'm talking to an artist, I always ask, what's your full-time job? Very few of them are artists full-time. I mean that is really uncommon and it's really hard to make a living that way. Most of the artists that we work with are graphic designers and they make websites for clients and they're being creative maybe in some other way, but it isn't their source of income. And I don't think that if you look at this generation that wants to be content creators, that all of them can be content creators and make a living. Someone has to put food on the table, right. But you can add a little bit of extra for some of these folks and for the top 1% of them, or top 5% or top 10% of them to be able to make a reasonable living from doing this, I think is possible.   (29:33): And my gold star metric for, I'm going to use Degen poet as our test baby, is how close can we get to replacing the income from his W2 job over the next year? We're actually not that far away. We're making progress and we continue to tweak that and it will pay back dividends. If he can be full-time on this and he'll be able to have, I don't know how he has a full-time job already. That part's a mystery to me, but in theory, more art, more content, more delight for people, that will help us grow too. DP and I are very aligned on that as a kind of a side quest to just getting art into people's hands.   Brian Friel (30:08): Yeah. I think that's a great first goal. When you guys think about how we get to a world where the Degen Poets of the world can do this full time no questions asked, it's like an afterthought to even consider another job. Are there anything that you think that we need to change as an industry, something we should stop doing? And I ask this question because last time we had you on the show, Vibhu, you had a couple hot takes that you dropped, mostly around how a number grow up is very bad for the industry. I want to ask, has that thinking evolved at all for you, Vibhu? And then I also later want to hear some Degen Poet has any ideas on that as well.   Vibhu Norby (30:41): I'm still on the same train. Number go up, number go down both equally bad in many different ways. The only thing is I really feel it when if you're sitting on Twitter all day, you really feel the price. You don't even have to look at the tweets. When Bitcoin was over 30K yesterday, I felt it. I didn't even have to look at my app. When Solana's down, you feel it. For better or for worse, the audience there is highly effective. And so I can't help but be empathetic to it, but it's actually an imperative for our industry to survive, especially in the US for us to move past the tokens, we have to. I strongly feel that, this is going to offend some people. I'm just trying to be careful how I say this. I think that the OG crypto community who was here in 2015 to 2017, the ICO era and these people are holding our industry back in a lot of ways.   (31:37): I think they're all over our biggest applications and our biggest exchanges and this and that. And I think somewhere in the back of all these folks heads, they can't get over the fact that the bull market's going to come back again and they're going to have a Lambo. And it just doesn't make sense if we're serious about this being in the hands of billions of people, sorry, we can't make a Lambo for all seven, eight billion people on earth. Some of us have to drive a Honda Civic, some of us have to drive a bike. Can we get bike money for everybody? Can we get there first and let go of the kind of grasp of all the token people? That's where I'm at. I could be wrong. Maybe I'm flawed, maybe everyone can have a Lambo. I would love one, but that's not where I see the future.   Degen Poet (32:20): Yeah. I mean I guess I feel similarly. I guess you want to create a space in the blockchain where the number go up and down doesn't really affect your day to day of enjoyment. You don't think about the price of a t-shirt or a box of Legos or whatever it is going up and down. You still just consume them because you want it or you like it here and there. I think of the Pokemon card analogy when it comes to this. I think with Drip House where they're just cards in general. I think there's a space for the legendaries or whatever it is, smaller supplies, having numbers go up. I do think that creates a lot of fun and excitement, brings people on, all that, but it really needs to be balanced with the day to day. Your reason for being here can't be that, because if it is, then it's like yeah, it doesn't feel sustainable and you're just building a system where there's a small amount of winners and most people are losers. And so it's like what are you really doing for the world at that point? We need to find a way to create value for digital assets that's just inherent in whatever the object is. It's not because of a price or a speculation, it's just because you value whatever the thing is.   Brian Friel (33:31): Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I think you guys are on the right path here and I think a lot of people who use Drip every day are resonating with what you guys are doing. Well, guys, this has been a really awesome conversation. One question we always ask our guests, I'd love to hear this from each of you, maybe starting with Degen Poet, is who is a fellow builder that you admire in the Solana ecosystem?   Degen Poet (33:52): I really like the Foxes a lot. I like drags and I like the Foxy Dev. I think that they've done an awesome job of trying to find actually useful stuff that people could use on Solana and bringing it into their system and I've seen them do some stuff overnight for people and all the rest of it. Really like them. Really like the guys at Tenor too. I mean the stuff that they've done for us in compressed NFTs is pretty incredible. Everyone on those teams is great.   Brian Friel (34:21): I agree. Vibhu.   Vibhu Norby (34:22): I'm going to recall 'cause I'm a second time guest, the answers I gave last time, 'cause it's kind of funny in retrospect. I think I mentioned Ahkshe from Super Team who I would give again and again. He's been such an amazing supporter of me and Drip and places before that. And I think at the time I also gave Frank Deca as my other answer. I still have a soft spot for him. I know he left Solana, but I can't help but admire the fanatical community building that he has. But yeah, I mean today, the couple of people that came to mind for me were, yeah, I mean the Tensor guys are amazing. These guys are just... A hilarious story. I pinged Ilia, the founder, yesterday and I asked them, hey, can I have a vector version of your logo? And I kid you'd not. The second I typed that, I see Ilia is typing and then three seconds later the vector file was there and I was like, did you just have this sitting on your desktop ready to drop into this?   Brian Friel (35:15): Copied on the clipboard already? Yeah.   Vibhu Norby (35:17): They really don't like that. Just really responsive. I respect that a lot. I want to give a shout-out to a guy named Carol who I won't dox him. He's a really impressive guy in real life and I got to know that after I spoke to him. There's these people in our community that are anonymous. I think he's an OK Bear or whatever, maybe a monkey business, and you find out their real life and they're like some VP of some big company. You just never know who you're talking to. But he's been, both for Drip and for Dialect, who I also listed as my admiration for, he's just been building stuff for free that benefit our communities and hundreds of thousands of people use those tools every single week to track their Drip collection. He's KIRYL_SOL, I believe he is his Twitter handle. Yeah, huge ups to that guy for carrying collectibles into the future.   Brian Friel (36:06): I love it. These are all future guests of the podcast we're naming here. We have to get these guys on, have them tell their story as well. But yeah, Vibhu, Degen Poet, I just want to thank you guys from the Phantom team. We love everything that you guys are up to. We really think that Drip House arose at a time when Solana needed it most. We think you guys really carry a light forward for a way that pioneer's a new model for art on Solana, for artists making a living. Really excited for everything that you guys have to come. Thank you so much for your time on Zeitgeist.   Degen Poet (36:33): Thanks for having us.   Vibhu Norby (36:34): Thanks. Bye.