The Curse of Bisexuality: Worse Than Being Gay Across Stats ... But WHY???

In this episode, Malcolm and Simone Collins dive deep into the surprising statistics and social dynamics surrounding bisexuality. They explore mental health trends, relationship patterns, discrimination, and the unique challenges faced by bisexual men and women. From discussions about societal perceptions, sexual satisfaction, and the intersection of identity and privilege, to personal anecdotes and a deluge of data, this conversation is both thought-provoking and candid. The hosts question common assumptions, analyze studies, and share their own experiences, all while keeping the tone engaging and relatable. If you’re curious about why bisexuals often appear as outliers in so many statistics, or want to better understand the complexities of sexual orientation, this episode is for you. Join the conversation in the comments—Malcolm and Simone want to hear your theories! Don’t forget to like, subscribe, and check out our other episodes for more deep dives into fascinating social phenomena.Malcolm Collins: [00:00:00] Hello, Simone. Today is gonna be an interesting episode. That is an episode that was spurned from something that happened as we recorded other episodes, some of which haven’t even gone live yet. But basically we occasionally, when there’s a sexual statistics, we’ll go through them and we’ll be like, oh, what’s going on here? What’s going on here? Right? Because, Simone Collins: yeah. Do people typically break things down by, are you gay? Are you straight? Are you lesbian, or are you bi, or are you trans? And then. Malcolm Collins: Yeah, and every time we’ve done this, there’s been this little phenomenon that I always throw out in the moment, right? It’s always like, well, you have the straight people who are typically doing pretty well. Then you have the gay people that are typically doing middling. Then you have the trans people, which are typically doing pretty bad. Simone Collins: Yeah. Malcolm Collins: And then for whatever reason. You have the bi people who are off the charts doing bad. Simone Collins: Yeah. Malcolm Collins: Which is weird because if I was thinking about it, I would think that the, the, the data would typically [00:01:00] go straight, bi, gay, trans. Simone Collins: Yeah. ‘cause especially like if you’re bi, it’s almost like you get the best of all worlds. Like if you wanna live your best gay life, you get to do that. If you wanna live your straight life and conform with society, you could do that like. Malcolm Collins: Yeah, the last thing I would’ve expected was straight gay trans bi. Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. Like you’d think that that, that you, you’re all-terrain. You’re all-terrain Sexual. Well, like why is this Malcolm Collins: an all-terrain sexual? Yes. Yes. No. So let’s dig into this, because one, when I look into it, you find it in any statistic you’re looking at. Simone Collins: That’s the thing that always shows up, and we always have other things to talk about so we don’t dive in. But what? What is going on? Malcolm Collins: All right, so let’s start with a graph here. Okay. Simone Collins: Okay, Malcolm Collins: so this graph is mental health bisexual orientation. Simone Collins: Okay. Oh boy. Okay, Malcolm Collins: so on the far left, you’ve got hetero female. Okay. They’re doing pretty well. They’re in the positives here. Simone Collins: Oh, Malcolm Collins: and then hetero male. Oh, the [00:02:00] only other group in the positives. That’s nice. That’s nice. Simone Collins: Good for them. Okay. Okay, Malcolm Collins: so who’s got the next best mental health? Just a little bit down in mental health. Okay. Gay males. Simone Collins: Honestly, I’d expect them to do better. So this is a little surprising, but Okay. Malcolm Collins: Pretty close to fine. Okay. Then who’s, who’s doing next best? Okay. Just a about twice as bad as gay males. All right. Here you’ve got gay females. Okay. Okay. Simone Collins: Yeah. Malcolm Collins: Okay. Okay. Let’s look at bisexual females because they’re the next down. Simone Collins: Oh boy. Malcolm Collins: They are doing about five times worse than gay males. Simone Collins: Whoa, man. Malcolm Collins: Like significantly worse. Simone Collins: Okay. Malcolm Collins: So, but then the FARs is down, is bisexual males. Simone Collins: Oh, that’s, Malcolm Collins: which is just off the charts Simone Collins: down. That’s so weird because like we talked about, like even I was just listening to some asthma gold today, being like, oh man, when I was a teen, I, I wished I were gay. ‘cause it would just be so much easier Malcolm Collins: if I, no, I actually, before I went to puberty, I had the thought of like. [00:03:00] Life’s gonna be so much more fun if I’m gay. Simone Collins: No, I think a, I think a lot of guys have that thought. And here’s the thing, like I think in some ways it can suck to be gay. ‘cause like let’s say you’re religious, right? And you wanna have a family, like you wanna pursue the sacrament of having a family. But like the idea. Of banging a woman is super repugnant. Right. So that sucks. ‘cause then it’s, it would be really hard to have a family either. You have to Malcolm Collins: have a fear. Simone Collins: But if you’re, Malcolm Collins: you’re not born, I wasn’t born in a religious family, you know, I didn’t have, you know, the Yeah. Simone Collins: But even then, like if you wanna live a maximally, hedonic life, then it, it, it helps to be attracted to men because women are a lot harder to access. And gay communities are super fun. But like, Malcolm Collins: not only that, Simone Collins: just to have the option, it’s like you, you’d be way better off either way. Malcolm Collins: You one, know what your partner wants and can model that, right? Simone Collins: Yeah. Malcolm Collins: But then two, you, you can do things and pleasure maxing. Like there is nothing I can do as a straight man. That’s like fire island. There’s nowhere I can go where there’s like a ton of women that wanna sleep with me. Right. Like if I’m a hot guy, there’s literally nowhere on earth I can [00:04:00] go that is even remotely like a gay cruise or fire island or something like that. Simone Collins: Oh. But like the female equivalent. Malcolm Collins: Well, yeah. Where it’s just like everyone, there is a woman who wants to bang me. Right? Simone Collins: Well, I mean there is, it’s like Epstein Island, except all the women are miserable and then they write, tell all books and talk about how terrible it was. And then you get Prince Andrew and your life is, is awful. So yeah, no, there really isn’t like, if only you know, prince Andrew was gay, this, none of this would’ve happened. You know? Sad. Malcolm Collins: I love you so much. You are such a wacko. But the point here being is this is confusing to me, right? Because. Okay. We can talk about where being gay might help you with hedonism. Maxing, which I think leads to more mental health problems. So I think that could be one of the reasons why there’s so much lower than Simone Collins: spread people. It works for some people, Malcolm Collins: but, but Simone, what doesn’t make sense to me here? Mm-hmm. Right? Like if I’m just looking at this at face value. Simone Collins: Yeah. Malcolm Collins: Okay. Gay men are much more mentally healthy than gay women. Okay. But bisexual women are much more mentally healthy than bisexual males. Simone Collins: Yeah. [00:05:00] What’s up with that? That is, that is weird, Malcolm Collins: Eric. And presumably the bisexual like male Simone Collins: is No, actually, no, no, no, no, no. I, I think, I think maybe the issue though is that. All women are kind of seen as by, by default anyway, you know, like there’s this whole thing about, oh, you all go through your lesbian period in college, Malcolm Collins: right? No. Do you think that, do you think that the bi females are being watered down? Simone Collins: Yeah, I think, I think it’s kind of tacitly understood that all women are by anyway. Because like I said, it’s a trope to do your lesbian thing in college and to kiss a girl. I kissed a girl and I liked it as a song and like all this stuff is just kind of, I think. While people still view female sexuality largely on a Kinsey scale from like gay to straight, it’s really not, people actually understand intuitively that women really don’t care that much about gender. They may not go the, the step further required to understand that it really female sexuality more has to do with dominance and submission. But they also understand that women just kind of don’t care as much about, the, [00:06:00] the gender of the person that they’re, they’re getting intimate with. So I think that the, the problem is that with men there, there is typically a much stronger polarization of attraction to primary and secondary sexual characteristics. So when men deviate from that and are able to bridge the divide, they are seen as more. Weird, unusual. Like it’s one or the other. You know, you, you gotta be a, a magnet, you know, you’re, you’re a plus or a minus. Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. So Simone Collins: twos of team. Malcolm Collins: But here’s the thing that, that makes sense. And I have a hypothesis here that I didn’t have it. I was putting all these together, but we’re gonna get to more stats in just a second. Simone Collins: Okay. Malcolm Collins: But like. I keep thinking to myself, why would bisexual men, be like by far the worst off. Simone Collins: Yeah. ‘ Malcolm Collins: cause presumably if they want a hedonism max, they can do that. Simone Collins: Right. Malcolm Collins: And if they want to live like a monogamous wife and have a family, they can do that as well. Simone Collins: And isn’t that great? Yeah. Wouldn’t, wouldn’t. Most men want the option Malcolm Collins: right? Here’s could be the answer. Okay. Okay. Okay. And it, [00:07:00] it’s a maximally offensive answer. Wait, can you guess what it’s gonna be? It’s something Simone Collins: my mom used. Tell me. No, I don’t know because this doesn’t make any sense to me. I really don’t. Malcolm Collins: Sometimes my mom used to always tell me, what, what, what do you think? Maybe she told me about bisexual men. Simone Collins: Actually, I don’t know, Malcolm Collins: they don’t exist. She said bisexual men are predominantly just gay men who are covering for it. And that would make sense. If bisexual is a self category for a self-hating gay, then it would make sense that they have so much worse mental health problems. Simone Collins: Oh, because they’re just not, they’re, yeah, they’re like. Yeah, you’re not in the closet. You’re not out of the closet. You’re constantly slamming yourself in the closet door. Malcolm Collins: Yes. And there was actually a study done on this at one point and it showed that of men who identify as bisexual I think it was like 75% or might have been higher than that. Actually only get aroused by one gender or the other. If you do like, you can. Attach like electrodes to their junk and show [00:08:00] them stuff. And who can Simone Collins: sense to that? How much do you have to be paid? Yeah, so, , doing a little too much from memory here. So let’s see what the study actually said. So the study I was thinking of was by Michael Bailey, and it was published in 2005 and it was called a Sexual Arousal Patterns in Bisexual Men. , The way it worked is a mercury and rubber strain gauge, a type. Flimm graph. It’s like those things that they attach to your arms anyway, was attached around the member to detect changes in circumference as an indicator of erection. , This is the electrode to the junk thing that I mentioned here. , So, , . , The results, , bisexual men did not show a distinctly bisexual pattern IE strong response to both male and female stimuli. Instead, their genital responses were more monosexual, mostly similar to gay men’s patterns, stronger arousal to male stimuli with some resembling straight males, stronger to female stimuli. The favorite doesn’t give an exact percentage break. Gown, but the NY times coverage on it, which, , was referenced, interpreted it at about three quarters, [00:09:00] 75% of the bisexual men having arousal patterns indistinguishable for gay men, the remaining quarter, similar to straight men. In other words, few, if any, showed substantial genital arousal to boast genders equally, strongly, statistically, there was no significant quadratic relationship indicating a unique bisexual gender pattern. . Malcolm Collins: Of those, I think is 75% of those were just attracted to men. And then like 25% were just attracted to women. Simone Collins: Oh boy. That’s embarrassing. Malcolm Collins: Anyway yeah. What is this Simone? You goof? He’s, you like looking at the kid? Simone Collins: He’s me. Funny looks. He is just giving me funny looks. Malcolm Collins: Yeah, well, you know, it’s your, your. Biology there. Sorry. So let’s look at other things here. Any mental illness in the past year? Okay. So let’s look at this. Simone Collins: Okay. Okay. Okay. Malcolm Collins: So, bisexual, we’ve got 50% lesbian. We’ve got. 25% heterosexual, Simone Collins: 25% of having mental problems or good mental health Malcolm Collins: had a mental health illness. So I find this interesting ‘cause it shows that gay and lesbian [00:10:00] were a bit above heterosexual, but around the right range uhhuh. Whereas they were half of what bisexuals were. If you look at serious mental illness, so that was any mental illness, serious mental illness, bisexuals, it was 19% gay or lesbian, it was 6%. Heterosexual was four or 5%. Simone Collins: Whoa. Malcolm Collins: Major depressive episode bisexuals, 26% gay and lesbian, 14%. Heterosexuals, 10%. Whoa. Unloving attempts 26 to 36%. Bi. Mm-hmm. The gay higher one is lesbian, 30%. So over here I’ve been reading, which ever was higher, gay or lesbian, and it’s been lesbian every time. Chase who Simone Collins: is, Malcolm Collins: And then less than 5% for straight depression or anxiety risk. Bisexuals are again, 1.5 to two x higher. Okay, let’s go next. Here. Here’s some interesting ones. Inter, inter partner violence. Simone Collins: Well that’s gotta be lesbians, right? Malcolm Collins: No, very interesting here. Okay, so, female to male, heterosexual, inter partner [00:11:00] violence. So, and, and this is the level to which they’re a victim of it. Okay. So, women are a victim for men. 35% of the time. Men are a victim from women 29% of the time. Simone Collins: And that’s gotta be, that’s gotta be higher because I bet it’s really under-reported, but Sure. Malcolm Collins: Yeah. And I’ve heard ones of those that show that it’s actually higher for women to men, but you know, we’ll get to because we see it on air. Like I’m sure Macron wouldn’t say that he’s a victim of it, but he obviously Simone Collins: Exactly. That’s the point. Yeah. Malcolm Collins: Okay. Male to male, gay. Remember women, it was 35% men, it was 29%. It’s 26% so below and there was a piece recently by Emil Coard that argued that when you correct for the fact that gays pair up less as, as getting relationships less, it’s actually slightly higher. Like gays will be within another partner without defining themselves as a partnership. And so you really only get the very best partnerships claim they get. It doesn’t matter. We’re not gonna go into [00:12:00] that. The point being is that gays are probably at around the rate of heterosexuals or maybe a bit lower. Okay. Lesbians. Of course really high as you know, 43.8%. Oh, Simone Collins: ouch. Malcolm Collins: But here’s where it gets interesting. Bisexual women, 61.1%. Simone Collins: What Malcolm Collins: higher than lesbians? And, and bisexual men. Are also one of the highest categories. 37.3%, but still less than lesbians. Wow. Simone Collins: Yeah. Malcolm Collins: Now let’s look at physical violence rates. ‘cause this is where it gets really interesting. Okay. Women, 29.8% in heterosexual relationships. Men 26.3%. Gays again, lower 24% lesbians, again, higher, 36.3%. But what about bisexuals? This is physical violence. Women at 55.1%. Over half, over half of women who are bisexuals have e experienced physical violence from their partner. And for males it’s 27%. Okay, let’s go to the next [00:13:00] category here. Severe physical violence. What’s this gonna be? Women? 23.6% women. 13.9% gays in between this time, 16.4%. Okay. And lesbians, again, topping everyone at 29.4%, except for, and I couldn’t find the numbers for bisexual men here, but I found it for women. Simone Collins: Okay. Malcolm Collins: Women for severe physical violence, if they were bisexual, 49.3%. Almost half of bisexual women are severely physically abused. Simone Collins: Oh. Now someone needs to, wow, man. So like if you have a bisexual friend, ask them if they’re okay today. Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Simone Collins: Right. Know Malcolm Collins: grape threats. I couldn’t find it for male to male or female to female, but I could find it for women. How frequently they get this from their partners if they’re gonna heterosexual relationship. Okay. It’s 9.1%. Bisexual women is 22.1% twice the rate. You see what I mean? Like, these numbers are everywhere, even where you wouldn’t expect them. Yeah. Okay. Let’s look at this is from the longitudinal study of [00:14:00] adolescent and adult health. So we’re looking at have they undergone physical violence, forced intercourse or threatened violence? Okay. Okay. So bisexual males physical violence, 11.1%. Threatened 18.5, forced intercourse, 17.1%. So let’s compare that to heterosexual males. You get 4.9%, way lower 10. 10% that’s for certain violence. And then forced intercourse 4.9%. So like dramatically, like orders of magnitude lower. If we go to bisexual women. This is also gets pretty interesting. So, forced intercourse only 2.6%. Remember in bisexual males it was 17.1%. Simone Collins: Yeah. Malcolm Collins: And a heterosexual woman is 1.4% only. But some like way lower than the bisexual woman. It’ll exist on, on screen here, but basically you’re seeing the same patterns here. A, the key insights from this study, bisexual males were notably higher [00:15:00] rates of forced blank perpetration compared to heterosexual males was odds adjusted five times higher After controlling for demographics than other factors, bisexual female showed modestly higher rates of physical violence and threaten, violence perpetrated than heterosexual females. The differences were not always statistically significant. Okay, so a 2022 systemic review of 78 quantitative studies on domestic abuse perpetration among, sexual minorities, including bisexuals, found consistent evidence that bisexual individuals perpetrate IPV at a higher rate than gays and lesbian people of various forms. So goodness, they aren’t just subject to it at higher rates. They also do it at higher rates. God, Malcolm Collins: if you have a bisexual partner, you are much more likely to be abused by them than you are if you don’t have a bisexual Simone Collins: partner. If I can get like the, like mental health rates and stuff. But this, this, this violence and abuse. I don’t [00:16:00] understand. Do you have any theories behind it? Malcolm Collins: Well, let’s, let’s go to more, let’s go to more statistics here, because as the statistics maybe you’ll be able to piece these together and begin to pick out what could be causing this. Okay? Simone Collins: Okay. Yeah. Malcolm Collins: Okay, so let’s look at dissolution rates for couples. Okay. What’s their probability of breaking up? Okay. This is within five to 10 years. So, lesbians it’s 12 to 14%. That’s two to three x the gay rates and 1.5 to two x the heterosexual rates gays, it’s two to 27%, so very low over five to 10 years, right. Heterosexual. It is baseline eight to 22%. But with bisexuals it’s 1.5 times higher. Oh, awesome. So, you’re looking at slightly higher than gays. Slightly less than lesbians. If you, let’s look at poverty, right? Simone Collins: Oh, Malcolm Collins: okay. This one might surprise you. Simone Collins: Yeah. Would expect poverty. Wait, I’m, I’m gonna say poverty is gonna be lower among bisexuals. ‘cause I would also expect [00:17:00] bisexuality. To correlate with growing up in a more wealthy environment. Malcolm Collins: Okay, so, poverty for gay and lesbians, it’s 14% is a higher number. And this is for lesbians. Simone Collins: Okay? For Malcolm Collins: bisexuals it’s 30%. Simone Collins: What? Why? Malcolm Collins: And it, it’s at two for, for buys. It’s at two to four x. The hetero rate exceeded. Why? Simone Collins: That’s so weird because I just, like, I, I, I typically associate poverty with being in like more rural, more conservative areas, especially in the United States, and you’re just less likely to see people who are exposed to culture that presents being buy as an option. You know? Yeah. Malcolm Collins: It’s the same with SNAP assistance. You’re much more likely to be on SNAP assistance if you’re bi. Simone Collins: What? That’s so weird. Malcolm Collins: Okay. You see, I told you this, this is getting weird, right? Simone Collins: Yes, it is. I You don’t think Malcolm Collins: this rabbit hole would get this weird, but it gets No. There’s something going [00:18:00] on with BI people. Simone Collins: Yes. Malcolm Collins: All right. So let’s look at the BRFS analysis. Okay, so we’ve got sexual orientation here and we are looking at, yeah. So this is substance abuse. Simone Collins: Oh, okay. Okay. Malcolm Collins: Let’s look at Simone Collins: substance abuse. Oh yeah. Substance abuse disorder or something. Yeah. Okay. Malcolm Collins: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Simone Collins: Oh, substance use disorder. SUD. Yeah, that makes sense now. Okay. Malcolm Collins: I’m okay. So, for women for straight women it’s 13.8%. For lesbians, it’s 26.5%. For bisexual women, it 32.2%. Let’s get men for. Straight men, it’s 20.7% for gay men at 32.2%. For bisexual men, it’s 32.4%. Not chopping the part chart as much, but still chopping the chart across. See the patterns holding. Simone Collins: Yeah. Malcolm Collins: Okay. Let’s look at alcohol specifically. Okay. Simone Collins: Okay. Is Malcolm Collins: this gonna, is this gonna buck our trend here? Hmm. [00:19:00] Heterosexual women, 9.1% lesbians, 15.9% bisexual women, 17.3%. Not bucking the trend. Okay, let’s go with men here, right? Heterosexuals, 13.5%. Gay men, 18.9%. So significantly higher in gay men. Note that bisexuals 15.7%. The first one to buck the trend. Simone Collins: Okay, Malcolm Collins: bisexuals don’t drink as much. Simone Collins: Well finally. Malcolm Collins: Let’s look at oh and alive attempts. Okay. Simone Collins: Okay. Malcolm Collins: So, heterosexual males, 0.4% gay males, 1% bisexual males, 1.5%. Okay. Heterosexual or straight women? 0.5% gay women. 0.9%. Simone Collins: Yeah. Malcolm Collins: Bisexual women, 2.1%. Simone Collins: Whoa. The worst I would’ve expected because typically men are more likely to go for it, you know? That’s interesting. [00:20:00] Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Okay, so let’s continue here. Homelessness and housing instability. Another chart here. Lifetime rates. For bisexuals, it’s lifetime instability, 32% current homelessness in use. 36% was in gays or lesbians. It’s 26% to 19%. Again, so much higher for bis discrimination. Now this one was so interesting to me. Simone Collins: Hmm, Malcolm Collins: so interesting. So what you might say in a hypothesis could be. Is buys are more discriminated against than gays or lesbians because they are discriminated against within the LGBT community as being infiltrators are not real or not, you know? Simone Collins: Yeah. Malcolm Collins: Their identity is constantly invalidated. I mean, this is true. You do see that. I mean, you had me saying maybe buys aren’t real. Simone Collins: Yeah, totally. Totally. Yeah. Here Malcolm Collins: we are Simone Collins: perpetuating the issue, so let Malcolm Collins: how to explain it right Uhhuh, if this follows the same trend we’ve been seeing. Simone Collins: Okay. Malcolm Collins: All right. Simone Collins: Okay. Malcolm Collins: Bisexuals let’s, let’s see. [00:21:00] Their, their amount of discrimination. All right, so social acceptance of LGB, right? Like, do they feel that this is within their environments, all right? Simone Collins: Mm-hmm. Malcolm Collins: For lesbians, it’s 31% was gays, it’s 39% was bisexuals. It’s 20%. Simone Collins: What, Malcolm Collins: so slightly lower, but not as lower as you would expect from these other Simone Collins: times. Why is none of this going the way I would expect? Malcolm Collins: Out to important people? With lesbians it’s 71%. Simone Collins: What, what what does out Malcolm Collins: basically is like, are you out about this to your family and friends? Simone Collins: Okay. Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. Malcolm Collins: So lesbians at 71%, gays at 77%. Bisexuals is only 28%. Simone Collins: That makes sense. Malcolm Collins: Well, maybe they don’t have to be as out. Right. You know, like, Simone Collins: yeah, you can do whatever you wanna be because yeah. Mm-hmm. Malcolm Collins: But maybe that caught. Maybe it’s like having to live the lie is the bigger thing here or something. Okay. Workplace harassment. With, with bisexuals it’s around [00:22:00] 66%. And Gaze, it was lower than that, but I don’t know the exact numbers. Simone Collins: That makes sense. I actually am in, in the middle, or I just started reading a book called Whistleblower, which is a, the, the Tell All book because I’m on a Silicon Valley. Tell all book Malcolm Collins: you love Simone Collins: those like tears. I’m crazy about them. I loved Bad Blood, I loved Burn Book by Kara Swisher. I, I really enjoyed careless people by Sarah, whatever her name is about. Facebook and now I’m on whistleblower and this is by a female employee at Uber. And guess what? Already, like right at the beginning she just drops it. She’s bisexual. Totally not relevant as far as I’m concerned so far. I don’t know why she had to bring it up, but yeah, like she’s bisexual and she’s, Malcolm Collins: all of these whistleblower books are like ultra urban monoculture people trying to infiltrate organizations that aren’t urban monoculture and it’s their struggles to force the organization. That’s what the Facebook one was. Simone Collins: Yeah, I don’t know. I, I, I don’t, I don’t think the person who, like so far, the person who wrote this Uber book, while bisexual is [00:23:00] not coming across as super urban monocle. I mean, I guess she is because her entire, while she came from a hyper religious family of five that grew up in a severe poverty. Her entire aspirational youth, like Young Adulthood, was oriented around entering the university system and navigating it. So she basically got a guest, urban monoculture fired within that part of her life, arguably. Mm-hmm. But yeah, I mean, it is notable that she’s harassed, whistleblower and also very su superfluous or gratuitously. Bisexual, like, I don’t know, like most people don’t like start out books of like. You know, I, I, I don’t, I wouldn’t start my biography being like, you know, I, Malcolm Collins: this is what I, it’s not even her Simone Collins: biography. I’m sexual, you know, Malcolm Collins: it’s about you being at a company, right. Like you Yeah. Your day job. Simone Collins: Yeah. And Malcolm Collins: you start it with, let me tell you what I do with my vagina. Simone Collins: Well, and also, but, but like you, you can be sexually harassed and [00:24:00] be. Gay, straight, bi, lesbian, or asexual or trans, like, it doesn’t really matter. You know, like, it doesn’t matter what your orientation is, what matters is what other people did to you. So yeah, I, I did find that notable. It’s interesting. Anyway, carry on. Malcolm Collins: Anyway so to continue here mm-hmm. Let’s look at social isolation between these communities. Simone Collins: Oh. Malcolm Collins: Because, you know, we were talking about, well, maybe they’re more discriminated against, maybe they’re more like less out there. Simone Collins: Yeah, Malcolm Collins: and so with men for straight 10.2%, gaze, 15.4% and then bisexual, it’s 18.7%, so slightly higher, but not enough to explain the other results with women. For heterosexual, it’s 12.1%. For lesbian, it’s 16.8%, and for bisexual it’s 19.5%. Simone Collins: I don’t, don’t mean bisexual is strictly a privilege. Again, you’re the altering, Malcolm Collins: more socially isolated. If you’re bisexual, Simone Collins: you have you. You’ve [00:25:00] doubled the options of everyone else. I don’t, I’m so confused. I’m so confused. Malcolm Collins: Double the options people. I love the way you look at things. So delightful. You have double the options. Simone Collins: Yeah, I mean, I, I, I should be the, the, the most, right? Like if, if I grew up as, as asexual gay for Malcolm like, I, I don’t know what, what is it supposed to be? Like heteroromantic, I, I can’t remember what, whatever. But like you’d think asexuals are, are the, gonna be the most miserable, right? Because they have the fewest options or something. By people. This is so confusing. No, I want answers. Malcolm. Give me answers. Malcolm Collins: You want Simone Collins: answers? Malcolm Collins: Well, we’re gonna make it even more confusing here. Simone Collins: No, what is wrong with just install? Okay, go on. Go on. Malcolm Collins: So again, you look at some of this recent data and you might be moving towards the. Sure. Well, maybe bisexuals just get it in their head that they’re more discriminated. Right? Yeah. And that leads to all of these downstream effects, [00:26:00] right? Simone Collins: I mean, so many of the mental issues that we’ve discussed throughout this podcast, throughout our relationship, throughout whatever, yeah. Really does have to do with contextualization. If you see yourself as a victim or if you even, even with really harmless, non polarizing things like sleep poor sleep, people who believe they’ve slept poorly. Experience more symptoms than people who think that they’ve slept well, report having slept well, but per a sleep lab analysis, sleep poorly. So believing you have a problem, it can be way worse than actually having a problem, even if it’s, you know, something as non mental health issues. So Malcolm Collins: we’ve got a hypothesis. Simone Collins: Yeah. Yeah. Malcolm Collins: Okay, now we’ve got a study here. The National Probability Survey from 2019 of 100, sorry, 1,617 LGBT adults. Simone Collins: Okay. Decent sample size. Okay, great. Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Okay, so microaggressions and offensive comments. All right. Gay men, 57% experience it. Gay women, 55% experience it. Simone Collins: Huh? Malcolm Collins: Bisexual men, 50% [00:27:00] experience it. Bisexual women, 48% experience it. Simone Collins: But so Malcolm Collins: fewer were Simone Collins: out Malcolm Collins: 68% fewer Simone Collins: and, well, I, who I, I can’t even think of like a slur or insult or discrimination I’ve heard against by people. Malcolm Collins: Well, me saying that I don’t think they’re real is probably one of the most common. Be like, oh, you’re just in the closet. When are you gonna come out of the closet? That’s a common one. Simone Collins: I don’t know. Is that, is that discrimination? Anyway, they Malcolm Collins: could just, okay, well let’s go to slurs. Okay. Simone Collins: Well, wait. What’s a slur for a bisexual person? Malcolm Collins: It’s this thing. I don’t know. One this, this, this could be it. This could be why they don’t get in it assaulted much, but for gay men, it’s 62% lesbian women. It’s 58% bisexual men is 55%. Bisexual women is 52%. Simone Collins: I know, I know. Words that are not nice. For gays and lesbians and straight people. But what’s a word that’s not nice for people? Malcolm Collins: I dunno. A butt traitor. What’s the, I’m gonna ask Google ‘cause I wanna know what are slurs for bisexuals? Simone Collins: Yeah. [00:28:00] Okay. Me too. Malcolm Collins: Behi and bi slut. Simone Collins: What? I’ve never heard that before. Malcolm Collins: These are lesbian forum words. Unicorns. Simone Collins: That’s considered a, it’s a compliment. Yeah. Bahe bi. Oh, like buy hat, bi slut. Switch. Hitter. Ac DC. Straight gay. Malcolm Collins: Confusing Simone Collins: experience. Ter. In a phase, actually gay. Oh, I like, I like actually gay. Malcolm Collins: Actually. Gay? Yeah. Simone Collins: Other oth. Other regional or informal? Informal slurs or phrases? Sometimes language specific such as toothpick 57. Oh, toothpick and Portuguese. Meaning used by both sides. That’s fun. Malcolm Collins: In in a phase. Simone Collins: In a phase. Malcolm Collins: He is in a phase. No, but I think that this shows that a lot of the gay community [00:29:00] doesn’t believe that bi people are bi Right. By males, by male, Simone Collins: yeah. Okay. Okay. So it’s, it’s only a slur in so far as someone is, is questioning the, the, your commitment? Yeah. Or like the legitimacy of your, but yeah. Okay. Wow. That I just, I don’t know, like comparing that to the slurs of other. Affiliations. All right, fine guys. You guys get really easily offended. Malcolm Collins: Okay, let’s go to the no, but, Simone Collins: but keep in mind that these people are also very mentally frail. So Malcolm Collins: I guess, okay, let’s go, let’s go to sexual harassment. Okay? Simone Collins: Okay. Malcolm Collins: Gay men, 54% Gay women, 50%. Bi men, 48%. So lower Uhhuh bi women, 50%. So the same as lesbians. Transgender, 72%. I really doubt transgender people are being more sexually harassed. I think that they just Simone Collins: consider anything well, every time. Every time you’re, you’re misgendered, you’re arguably being sexually harassed, so ugh, if you’re not passing, and so many people, Malcolm Collins: I feel, I would feel sexually harassed if a trans person. Took it upon themselves to feel [00:30:00] sexually harassed by me for misgendering them. Simone Collins: Well, I also, so here’s the thing, like if you’re trans too, I feel like no matter how either insulting or accommodating someone’s trying to be, you could arguably be sexually harassed. Keep in mind, like, let’s say I’m trying to pass as a woman and I’m a trans woman. So let’s say someone’s trying really nice, oh, you’re, you’re great today. Oh, you, you look so sexy today. Like, oh, your tits look great, right? Because they’re trying to like affirm. Your transition, but then they’re sexually harassing you as a woman. But if someone misgenders you, like, sir, would you please? And then, then they’re harassing you because they’re not affirming your gender. So no matter what someone does, Malcolm Collins: always the victim. Simone Collins: Yeah. Then, then you’re gonna be sexually harassed. So I can understand the trans thing, but by, because also like the number of people who are out as bi is so low. How can people even know to insult you? I don’t know. I, I don’t know enough to, to make you feel bad. Even if I wanted [00:31:00] to, I wouldn’t know. I’m so stressed. Malcolm Collins: Violence and threats, violence and threats, we get 53% for gay men. 49% for gay women, 47% for bisexual men, 48% for bisexual women, 75% for trans. So again, about the same across the board here. Okay. Path of harassment, Simone Collins: that sounds Malcolm Collins: bad. 28% for gay men, 30% for gay women. Really did that many gay women get bathroom harass? That doesn’t sound like something straight girls would do. I Simone Collins: think, I think where gay women feel threatened and stuff is like men gooning, you know, like, like I don’t wanna watch you. Malcolm Collins: It’s not bathroom harassment. Simone Collins: I don’t know Malcolm. Malcolm Collins: Then bisexual men is only 25%. Bisexual women is 27%. It’s like way lower here. And then transgender all is 65%. So I’m gonna stop right here for this one so that we have enough time for dinner. ‘Cause I realized that this is going on a bit longer than I thought. ‘cause there’s so many stats to go over Simone Collins: because, oh my god, what’s [00:32:00] going on? Malcolm Collins: What is going on? And you might wanna do some extra research yourself if you’re coming up with any hypotheses on these. In between the filmings. Simone Collins: Yeah. I guess. Yeah. So, so this is end of part one of this episode, at least for our recording. We’re gonna try to figure out some answers and we’ll get back to you with a little spider. No, not Spider-Man. Batman, interstitial. You didn’t, yeah. Did you, did you watch the old, the, the Live Action Batman? Malcolm Collins: I’ve like seen clips of it, but I Simone Collins: don’t You need to actually watch the real Live action Batman. It is, he’s little Malcolm Collins: watching, watching this. Simone Collins: I don’t know where I watched it actually. ‘cause I watched it when I was a kid, like on tv. But the dude was a little tubby. Like it was great. ‘cause he wasn’t actually very toned at all. He’s just tubby, Malcolm Collins: tubby guy beating up criminals. Speaker 3: Welcome to Dunbar’s, Batman and Robin. What’ll it be today Speaker 5: I am a little hungry. Speaker 4: Of course, Robin, even crime fighters must eat and especially you. You’re growing boy and you need [00:33:00] your nutrition. Speaker 5: Hamburgers, Speaker 3: medium rare. May I recommend Bat burgers, Speaker 4: bat burgers, Simone Collins: there’s not even a lot of, it’s just ba like, it’s more like the sound effect. That, that harm the, the criminals and stuff. But he is like tubby and just wearing slightly stretchy Malcolm Collins: clothes. I can only imagine like that slightly tubby because he is a little tubby. I’ve seen it. And he pulls like a thing off his belt and he throws it at the guy. And I can just imagine. And life, it just like smacks the guy in the head and then likes, wow. Simone Collins: It’s so, it’s so good. And also like the bat phone has this really distinctive sound that was used in a lot of electronics of the period. Simone Collins: It said it exactly like my mom’s. Alarm clock. So then after, after that, like every time my mom tried to wake up, I’m like, it’s the backbone. Oh my God. So there’s just so many things about that show, but yeah. Malcolm Collins: Why are you, you’re so delightful, Simone. You are a great wife, [00:34:00] a great mom, great husband. I really appreciate it. Simone Collins: I really appreciate you. I’m so gay for you, or I’m so bi for you. I don’t know what I am for you, but I’m, you’re pushing the buttons. I have. I don’t know what they are. Malcolm Collins: Store today. Looking for fish sauce, and I couldn’t find any. So, Simone Collins: what store did you go to? Oh, you went to Redners. Malcolm Collins: Redners. Oh, because I was picking up beer anyway, so it’s like, I’ll, I’ll check to see if they fish off. Simone Collins: I need, I need to get rice cakes. We need, we should have asked you. Malcolm Collins: But we can what I might do is add a bit of chili oil when you’re reheating it. Simone Collins: No, you know, I tried a little bit and I thought any more fish sauce would’ve ruined it. So I was glad I was short on it. Are you sure Malcolm Collins: you could really taste the fish sauce, right? Simone Collins: Yeah. So when I saw te it tonight for your rice, I’m gonna put in some chili oil. I think that would be great. It could use a little more kick, but I would not put in more fish sauce if I were you. I think it’s perfect on the sway sauce. I think it’s, it’s great on everything else. It just needs a little kick. Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Maybe a bit more pepper is, is, it feels very un unders spice. For a dish that’s supposed to be very spicy. Simone Collins: I, well, I think if I [00:35:00] saute it in chili oil, it’ll do the trick. Malcolm Collins: It’ll do the trick. Okay? Mm-hmm. And what else would I ask for? No, nothing else. Simone Collins: Snuggles, Malcolm Collins: Over rice. People often eat this with fried egg, but that seems like a lot to make. Simone Collins: No, I can do a fried egg for you on top. Just fun. Why not, dude? Malcolm Collins: Nice. And like Simone Collins: you got the coop. I’ll give you an egg from Stalin. In, in honor of the Nick Fuentes week we’ve had. Malcolm Collins: Yeah. That Simone Collins: I cannot believe Tucker Carlson did not push back when he’s like, well, it was a meaningful day for me because I love Stalin so much. Malcolm Collins: Yeah, Simone Collins: maybe he said he was gonna come back to that, but he never did. And I’m like, come on. Like, you don’t, you don’t let someone get by with like, Malcolm Collins: I think he also said he liked Hitler and Integra Carlson never like pulled on that. Like, Simone Collins: I mean, everyone acknowledges like the Hitler stuff, but like Stalin. I mean, because here’s the thing, if you’re a H, this Malcolm Collins: is why I’m saying Tucker Carlson’s a CIA asset. Simone Collins: I guess if you’re a Holocaust denni and you don’t actually think that like there was a Holocaust, then maybe Hitler wasn’t that bad of a guy. [00:36:00] So like in that universe, Malcolm Collins: yeah, I I, I was the one who explained this to you. I was like, yeah, it’s not so bad if you don’t, if Simone Collins: he didn’t actually do it. If, if the cookies couldn’t have been, if that many cookies couldn’t have been baked, right. But Stalin, he’s not questioning what Stalin did and he just thinks he is great. Malcolm Collins: Well, no, here’s the thing I don’t get. Speaker 7: Was a pedophile and kind of a pagan, it’s like, well, he was also really cool. So, you know, time to grow up. We’re not, we’re not children anymore. Am I right? Am I right? Am I right boys? Am I right? Let’s go. Malcolm Collins: So he thinks Hitler is great. Like there’s, there’s this one where he goes, you know, Hitler was sort of into like pagan stuff and Hitler was sort of into like. I think gay stuff or something. And then he’s like, but you know, he was still really cool. And I’m like, well, here’s the thing. Why do you think Hitler was cool if you don’t believe, believe the Holocaust happened. Simone Collins: Universe though is like both the Holocaust didn’t happen and Hitler was gay. Malcolm Collins: Right. [00:37:00] I, I’m like, why, why do you think that Hitler was cool if the a apparent reason for you thinking he was cool? I think it’s ‘cause he thinks it did happen just on a smaller scale, like a couple hundred thousand, which for him is at a cool level of genocide. Simone Collins: Yeah, it, it was, it’s it, it, it’s small batch processing. It’s the microbrewery of genocide. All right. It’s still hip. You know, it’s, it’s the Edison bulb. Artisan, Malcolm Collins: you are so going to hell for this. Damon. Simone Collins: I, I really am art. Malcolm Collins: Make jokes that are inappropriate for our audience, Simone Collins: your artisanal genocide. All right, I gotta go get the kids. And change a really poopy diaper. I love you. I love you so much. I’m Malcolm. Malcolm Collins: I might’ve, I might’ve enjoyed digging into Zoran. Menani more than Nick Fuentes, to be honest. Simone Collins: Yeah, Malcolm Collins: no, was fascinating. Simone Collins: Was fascinating. Malcolm Collins: Because you really wanna know more about those bisexuals and what the heck is going on here. Simone Collins: Yeah, and I’ve, I’ve been thinking about it and I’m no closer to an answer. I, I really there because there are some conflicting things in here that [00:38:00] don’t make sense to me. So. I wanna hear some more evidence. I wanna maybe with more information, I’ll come to more of a conclusion, Malcolm Collins: maybe with more points for triangulation. Simone Collins: Yes. Malcolm Collins: We’ll find out what is wrong with the bisexuals. Simone Collins: We must triangulate the, the problem. Malcolm Collins: But it is, it is, it is fascinating. So, okay, so I decided to be like, okay, like let’s look at other things like you know, conscientiousness and stuff like that. Yeah. I was like, maybe what it is is this is gonna correlate with some personality trait and everything’s gonna make sense, right? Simone Collins: Yes. Malcolm Collins: So I decided to go to conscientiousness as a personality trait. Right. So, if you look at men heterosexuals, they’re at 33 to 35 on this. If you look at men gay, they’re at 31 to 33 on this, so about the same. Okay. And if you look at bisexuals, they’re at 30 to 32 on this, so they’re a little lower. So, so basically gay men are a little less conscientious than straight men, and bisexual men are a [00:39:00] little less conscientious than gay men. Simone Collins: You’d think that gay men would be more conscientious. I mean, think about how much. Effort they have to put in just to looking good to other men. Malcolm Collins: I know, right? It is interesting, right? Simone Collins: Yeah. Malcolm Collins: Okay. So with women we get for straight women at 34 to 36 for gay women, 34 to 36, so exactly the same consciousness levels. For bisexual women, it’s lower 32 to 34. So it is still following this pattern of bisexuals being the outlier but not in like as big a way as you would think. Right. Simone Collins: Right. Yeah. And also like what if that’s just downstream or highly correlated with mental health problems, which we’ve also already Malcolm Collins: seen. Right? So, then there’s, you know, me coming in here and you know, my answer is always gonna be, it must be that there’re more urban monoculture infected then other populations because bisexual is an identity that fundamentally you can choose. Yeah. While gay and. Maybe [00:40:00] lesbian are less choices of identity sometimes. Because if you are like genuinely attracted to both genders, you can just choose to ignore one, right? Like, so I thought, well then maybe that means that these people are more urban monoculture cooked than other populations, right? Simone Collins: Yeah. That would make sense. But, but then actually, Malcolm Collins: but here’s the problem. Simone Collins: Okay. Malcolm Collins: So. What would he be a good proxy for that, right? A good proxy for that being trans would be how they vote. Oh, Simone Collins: okay. So, Malcolm Collins: so, let’s hear, look at voting patterns, right? So what percent lean left versus what percent? Lean, right? Okay. Straight men, 40%. For 40 to 45% left-leaning, 50 to 55% Right-Leaning. Okay. Gay men. And this must have been from a while ago, ‘cause I know it’s moved pretty big since then. But back then, and this is around when all of these other data points were collected, it was around 70 to 80% Democrat, 15 to 20% Republican. Simone Collins: Hmm. Malcolm Collins: But if you look [00:41:00] at Byman. They’re more Republicans, 60 to 70% liberal Democrat leaning 25 to 30% Republican leaning. So they seem to be less captured by the urban monoculture than the gay male population. Let’s look at women here. With women it’s 50 to 55% Democrat liberal leaning to 40. To 45% right-leaning. This is of straight women. But then when we go to gay women it’s 80 to 85% Democrat, 10 to 15% Republican. Simone Collins: That’s checks Malcolm Collins: out. You go to buy women, it’s 65% to 75% Democrat, 20 to 25% Republican. So they’re more wow Republican, buy women and men by dramatic Simone Collins: market. So surprising. Malcolm Collins: Okay. Let’s go to mental health issues. But break it down by type of mental health issue. Maybe this’ll have the answer for us, right? So let’s look at just women here to start lifetime mood disorders. So for straight women, that’s 30.5%. [00:42:00] For lesbians, that’s 44.4%. So more in lesbians, but then in bi women. It’s 58.7% lifetime anxiety disorders straight, 31% gay, 40% bi, 57%. So again, we’re seeing the same pattern. BIS off the charts on everything here. Depression for bis, for lesbian and straight women, it’s about the same. For buys is about two x the rate unloving chances three to 5% for straight women, 25% for gay women, 40% for by women. By women are just off the charts. Okay. Substance use 8.5% for straight women. 20% for gay women, 25% for bi women psychological distress. They found it in, it, it, I think it was 72% higher. It’s difficult to tell what, what study this is from in bi women then straight and gay women. And if we’re looking at males here here is where we see a bit different of a pattern than we’ve seen before. Okay? Yeah. So if you look at lifetime mood disorders, [00:43:00] you see 19.8% in straight men. 42.3% in gay men. So way higher than in gay women mind you. And 36.9% in bi men lifetime anxiety disorders. 18% in straight men, 41% in gay men, 38.7% in Biman. So again, down in Biman. And then the substance, well, that’s, yeah, the, these study seems to be less distinct. Okay. So that’s where we are. That’s all the data. Can, can you piece anything from that? Simone Collins: I feel like I’m just more confused than I was before. Malcolm Collins: And I, I do realize that the first one I was looking at here, this was neuroticism. So, what it is is for heterosexual men 15 to 20 on whatever scale they’re using for gays is 25 to 35 for bis. Okay. It’s 30 to 44, so slightly higher neuroticism. Simone Collins: Yeah. Malcolm Collins: For women it was 18 to 22. There was no significant difference in gay women. But it was higher. Slightly for well actually that could be pretty big. 20 to [00:44:00] 40 for by women. So it could be higher neuroticism levels Simone Collins: maybe. I mean, there, there’s so many ways in which there are outliers, so I don’t, I can’t chalk it up to neuroticism. I mean, all these things correlate too, like you would expect these things to correlate. So I don’t find. I don’t find it surprising that if they have higher levels of depression, that you’re gonna see higher levels of neuroticism or higher levels of, of perceived discrimination, for example. Malcolm Collins: Do we need to summon ala to the podcast to answer this question? Is she gonna have a, an answer of what’s wrong with bi women by men too? Simone Collins: Yeah. Malcolm Collins: What’s going on? Simone Collins: Yeah. Maybe, maybe I can ask AI to summarize what ALA has said on what makes buy people different. Malcolm Collins: Yeah, because this is I, I don’t, I don’t know if she’s answered this particular question yet, but it is a, but. Pernicious question like the f the mystery fertility strip we did an episode on. If you haven’t seen that [00:45:00] episode, you should watch it if you like this one. It was pretty weird. Yeah. There’s like a strip down the Center of America that has like stupidly high fertility rates and there’s not an obvious reason why. Simone Collins: Yeah. Malcolm Collins: The f, the whole episode overlapping maps with it to try to figure out what map best overlaps to this weird strip in the middle of the United States. Simone Collins: So according to her writing. That is ALA’s writing. Bisexual individuals, especially women, exhibit distinct patterns of attraction compared to both straight and exclusively gay individuals. She notes that women display a more polarized arousal spectrum with bisexual women, often demonstrating optics at both the lesbian and straight ends, suggesting more flexibility or more switch in sexual orientation compared to men. Ala also highlights attitudes toward BDSM are defining, characteristic, noting that people with. Preferences for BDSM sometimes termed BDSM, bisexuality or BD sexuality form a very distinct cluster, not always related to trauma, but instead [00:46:00] corresponding with how arousal, intimacy, and relationship references manifest. She suggests that some bisexual or queer individuals report a transformation in their sex drive and enjoyment when engaging in kink relationships, which may not happen with more vanilla sex. For these people, Okay. I didn’t fully gr what she was saying when Simone said this live, but it makes sense to me now in editing. , And it’s actually a very insightful point that only Alo would have because she has all of the data. Basically, she’s saying that bisexuality has a really high overlap with having an extreme amount of severe kinks that you want to engage in, in real life with other people, and that this may lead to, , well, and then obviously I’m saying here, a isn’t saying this here, that this may lead to the negative effects of bisexuality on individuals. Simone Collins: sexual satisfaction appears strongly connected to the mode of sexual expression rather than only the gender of the partner. But see, that’s more just female sexual arousal. Malcolm Collins: Yeah. This doesn’t explain why bisexuals are off the charts and everything here. [00:47:00] Simone Collins: Yeah. In in community commentary on her data contributors propose that birth order and family dynamics may influence homosexuality. Or homosexual and bisexual development with submissions indicating environmental and genetic factors. Again, that, that has nothing to do with this. So no ALA doesn’t, at least according to AI summaries Malcolm Collins: not a, the reason I wanted to call ALA in on it is I think she’d find the problem Interesting. Simone Collins: Yeah. Malcolm Collins: And the problem that no one has really tackled, like no one has called out. Something because everybody always is using this data to talk about something else, and so the weird bisexual outlier always gets blown off. Simone Collins: Yeah. But Malcolm Collins: I think when you really pull it all together, you’re like, there’s something going on with bisexuals. Simone Collins: There needs to be like an ala bad phone, just like the red phone Malcolm Collins: ala bad phone. What’s going on with the bisexual? What’s the Simone Collins: ring tone of the alo bat phone? We have to figure that one out. Malcolm Collins: But it’s, it’s a fascinating statistical phenomenon. Simone Collins: Yes. Malcolm Collins: It’s one that my go-to answer. It’s because they’re more [00:48:00] politically cooked, just doesn’t seem to fit the data. Simone Collins: No. Malcolm Collins: So I don’t know. I, Simone Collins: and also it, it doesn’t, you would think. Theoretically that it would just be a strict benefit, perhaps. I mean, one theory that I, I, I can posit at least in today’s day and age because most of these statistics are from fairly recent polling, is that we live in an era of choose a camp like you need to be in a category, and bisexuality just really hasn’t established a very strong identity as a unique. Identity in the oppression Olympics in any sort of realm. And maybe that’s because among different sexual orientations, it actually comes from, from a pro position of technical privilege, even if it is not discussed as such, because you actually have more optionality than any group, even cis. Malcolm Collins: I, I just had an idea and I’m gonna check it. Okay. I wanna see if bisexuals are maybe having a, are much more promiscuous. [00:49:00] It Simone Collins: could be, Malcolm Collins: Because Simone Collins: this Malcolm Collins: could explain it. Simone Collins: But, but, but in general, because bisexual people both are actually kind of privileged technically. And because they don’t really, oh, Malcolm Collins: oh, we might have found it here. Simone Collins: Wait, they, okay, so they’re more promiscuous. Malcolm Collins: So bi bisexual men those who have sex with lesbian women, women have more sexual partners per year than either gay or straight men. Suggesting about 2.5 to 3.1 more partners annually, Simone Collins: whoa. Malcolm Collins: Compared to gay men, which is 2.6 partners. In terms of sexual activities like cyber sex, sexting, threesomes, both bisexual and gay men report higher engagement in those behaviors than straight men. Bisexuals versus straight lesbian women, bisexual women show broader engagement in varied sexual behaviors of fellow masturbation, cyber sex, sexting, threesomes compared to heterosexual women. And often at similar rates to lesbian women. Bisexual women, however, report a slightly lower rate of orgasms compared to both straight and lesbian women. 58% [00:50:00] for bisexuals, 61.6% for straights, and 74.4% for lesbians in one study. Isn’t that fascinating that they’re getting off less than either straight women or lesbians? So it’s not a hurting her, it’s the men problem. It’s a, it’s a them problem. Lesbian women typically report the most sexual satisfaction. However yeah, when they do have the highest rates of orgasm the frequency of partnered sex can be lower for lesbian couples and for straight couples, like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. In the first two years of a relationship 67% of gay male male couples have sex three times a week. 45% of straight couples do and 33% of lesbian couples do. That is fascinating. It could be, it could be a frequency of sex issue. Simone Collins: That having more sex leads to all these bad things. Malcolm Collins: Yeah. Yeah. I could see that, especially if this was multiple partners. Because your body could release like hyper stress responses. If you are a woman and you’re doing this, and if you’re a man and you’re doing it, especially if you’re doing it in a submissive position, which I think is probably [00:51:00] more likely for a lot of bisexual men, that could also cause weird stress responses. Simone Collins: Well, but also to your point, like in any culture that maximizes hedonism. You’re, it, it’s almost a guarantee of misery when, when you try to pursue that. So perhaps this is also correlated or downstream of of, of hedonism maxing and that ultimately. Moving people more quickly toward the realization that they’re never gonna get the pleasure they seek, even though they’re seeking it more desperately than others. Malcolm Collins: Which you mean sex doesn’t actually give you like any sort of meaningful, lasting pleasure. Simone Collins: Correct. That’s interesting. I don’t know if I buy that. Maybe that’s just because I’m reading Whistleblower right now and the author is bi and she’s a completely miserable person, but she didn’t seem to necessarily spend most of. Of her life that Malcolm Collins: actually fits the Simone Collins: pattern. Malcolm Collins: She, she comes off, you were just, Simone Collins: she’s miserable, but she’s not more promiscuous. Malcolm Collins: You had a bee session about her for like 20 minutes this morning. My wife doesn’t go to an office to complain [00:52:00] to me about other women. She reads whistleblower books by progressives about their Silicon Valley jobs and then. Every morning ideal was a session of her being like, oh, can you believe she did this, this, and this? Oh, I’m so glad I’m not her. Oh, she complained about her boss being pat the patriarchy. I I, I love this. I love this. This is, this is me sending you to work so I can have you do I. Do I do that about anyone? I, I guess Ellie Eer is the only person we’re like, oh Simone Collins: yeah, Malcolm Collins: it’s so annoying. Simone Collins: You do that. You absolutely do that. But yeah, I mean, she isn’t necessarily more promiscuous, so I’m not 100% sure I’d buy that, but I could, I could see that, and I find that very, but then, but then again, like you would assume also that increased sluttiness would, cor would correlate with more political progressiveness and it doesn’t. Well, I mean, it [00:53:00] doesn’t have to, I mean, there’s lots of perfectly slutty conservatives Malcolm Collins: in my community. It’s, I don’t know, you know, whatever. But look, this is for our, our Simone Collins: one thing that I am thinking about though is remember in the times when we participated in group events like at Vibe Camp and at Less Wrong It, when a s did the lineups by body count. Where she had every member of the audience line themselves up by the number of sexual partners they’d had in their lifetime. Mm-hmm. So you go from people who are virgins, like at one end of the line, and to people who have the highest body count at the other end. Invariably, you were always at the end of the line. I mean, not the the final end end, but at the end you were the only cis straight dude. It was all dudes at the end. Malcolm Collins: It was all dudes at the end, but most of them, Simone Collins: but they were all bi Malcolm Collins: by. Simone Collins: They were, they weren’t, they weren’t gay. They were bi because I talked with them because I’m like, oh Malcolm Collins: they were okay. So yeah, so all these guys who are, so this requires a bit more explanation. So ala at her events and we’ve gone to a number of her events. She had [00:54:00] this shtick she does, which I love it, it’s fun. Where she lines everybody up by body count. And Simone’s always at one end. ‘cause she’s only slept with me. And I’m always at the other end because we haven’t mentioned this on the show, but recently, like we did it a lot in the early show and people used to comment like Malcolm bringing it up again. But when I was like a teenager not a teenager, I’m, I’m talking like college, high school. You were a slept, you were, Simone Collins: there’s no other Malcolm Collins: way to Simone Collins: put Malcolm Collins: it. I was like in the, the triple digits. Like well into the triple digits. And what I realized is that my level of sluttiness is almost. Unheard of in straight males potentially, because it’s just so hard to achieve. Mm-hmm. Simone Collins: Yeah. Malcolm Collins: And I will say that many Simone Collins: women to sleep Malcolm Collins: with you is incredibly, it’s not worth it. It’s not fun. You find nothing at the other end of it, you know? Simone Collins: Yeah. And, and it’s risky. I mean, every time you sleep, I, especially today, Malcolm Collins: getting somebody pregnant or something, which, you know. Simone Collins: Yeah. Very dangerous. However, yeah, I, I, I would when. When [00:55:00] going to these events, of course I want to like understand what’s going on with the people who are at these outlier ends. And it’s easy enough to know what’s going on with incel, but it, it is something that you wonder about with the people at the very high body count end. And yeah, they were, I remember them like distinctly. Because at first I was like, well, they must be gay dudes. No, they were bi. ‘Cause I remember that really standing out to me when I, when I talked with them. And, and so that like bi very much part of like, sort of the group sex world of the Bay Area, if you know what I mean. Yeah, Malcolm Collins: yeah. Simone Collins: Like orgies, Malcolm Collins: a good example is this is like destiny. Destiny seems like he probably sleeps around a ton, Simone Collins: maybe, but also like, think about this. If you regularly go to orgies, I think it’s really easy to get a high body count, and especially if you are bi. Malcolm Collins: Oh true. Yeah. And well, that’s gonna mess with your brain as well. You know, you no guy wants to see another girl guy having sex with a girl. Well, Simone Collins: appar no, not can do, you know how big kuck porn is? It’s huge. Malcolm Collins: Oh yeah, you’re right. We should do an episode on that, by the way. Simone Collins: Yeah, we probably should. It’s just, I don’t know, it’s so dark. [00:56:00] I don’t know. It strikes me as very dark. I don’t know if I wanna know more about it. But we publish Malcolm Collins: like a top search term in Japan or something. Simone Collins: Not, no, dude. No. Like. Globally, I think it, it’s, it’s astoundingly popular, which really confuses me because it’s like the nightmare scenario genetically speaking for men. Like that’s why I don’t, yeah. I’ve Malcolm Collins: explained this to you that you’ve got to keep in mind that cook porn is not just for men who get off. Simone Collins: Oh, right. It, it can be for men who get off on the idea of being the. What do they call them? Malcolm Collins: The Simone Collins: bull Bull. The bull, yeah. I was gonna say stud. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But anyway, yeah. So that, that, I guess the, the sluttiness hypothesis of bisexuals is, is gonna be our running theory for now. Please chime into the comments with your theories. You two have listened in to this. This, this deluge of stats, maybe a better synthesis than we do. Yeah. I, I feel like people in, and Malcolm Collins: if you come up with a good enough theory, we’ll do an episode on [00:57:00] it. Simone Collins: Ooh. Yeah. I like that. I’m, yeah. ‘cause I still, I don’t feel completely satisfied with this, but the ala lineup experience does reinforce it so anecdotally, I feel like there’s some confirmation there. All right. Thanks Malcolm. This has been elucidating. I love you. Malcolm Collins: Love you too. And I will point out that back when I slept around a lot, remember I was in a much worse mental state. Like I had, I ground my teeth, I had to wear like a night guard every night. I Simone Collins: That’s true. Malcolm Collins: Yeah. I was in a lot more daily stretch. Simone Collins: And then when you, when you went monogamous. You were actually able to get rid of the night guard without completely ruining your teeth. Malcolm Collins: Yeah, no, I, I’ve wor a night guard in years and I would break my teeth if I didn’t wear it even one night back then. Simone Collins: Yeah. I remember, I remember the night guard you had to bring it with you when you slept over at my, my little apartment, my little Malcolm Collins: Alameda Simone Collins: apartment. Malcolm Collins: So I, I could be evidence here. Simone Collins: Ooh. Okay. Well, good. I’m, I feel more sad. I was really worried we were gonna come out of this episode. Unsatisfied. Thank you for that. [00:58:00] Malcolm Collins: All right, love you. Bye. Simone Collins: Love you too. All right. I I think I saw. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit basedcamppodcast.substack.com/subscribe