Get Unstuck with Tom Dheere

00:02 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) Let's create your next demo together. As an award-winning demo producer, I'll work closely with you to craft a demo reel that showcases your unique talents and strengths. My personalized approach is going to ensure that your demo stands out from the crowd and gets you booked. Book a free 20-minute consult today and get started at annganguzacom.  00:27 - Intro (Announcement) It's time to take your business to the next level, the boss level. These are the premier business owner strategies and successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a boss a VO boss. Now let's welcome your host, nn Ganguza.  00:46 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) Hey everyone, Welcome to the VO Boss Podcast. I'm your host, Anne Ganguza, and I am delighted to bring back to the show for our Real Boss series, Mr Tom Deere. Hi, Hi.  00:58 - Tom Dheere (Co-host) Tom Hi, hi hi.  00:59 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) Hi Tom Dheere, Real Boss, Tom Dheere.  01:01 - Tom Dheere (Co-host) Yeah, Real Boss and Ganguza. Always great to talk to you.  01:05 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) You too. You know, tom, it's been a week. Oh yeah, yeah, it's been a week, for some reason. I gave a couple of workshops and I've talked to a few people that have just started out in this industry and a few people that have been in the industry for a couple of years, and I constantly I know you hear this all the time because you're the VO strategist I constantly get people who are just so frustrated and they can't get work and they want to give up, and I don't know how many times I can say it's hard, guys. I mean, it just is hard. The work doesn't just come easily, and I feel as though we need to spread some encouragement out there for those bosses who are wondering what's going on. What did I just do? Am I embarking on a career and I'm not seeing any work coming in?  01:53 - Tom Dheere (Co-host) But I think we need to maybe get real, tom yeah, and talk to our bosses, okay, well, the first thing I want to say on that is that for those of you who have put more than one cent, more than zero cents, into trying to become a voice actor, congratulations.  02:13 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) Yeah.  02:14 - Tom Dheere (Co-host) You should be Absolutely Praised and applauded for putting out money and money. You know money is money. Money is obviously what it is, but it's also what it represents. Spending money always represents an investment of some kind, whether it's buying a piece of bubble gum or a new car. Is that you're investing in this thing that you hope will make you happier or make your life easier or move your life forward in some way. So that's encouragement nugget number one. Be proud of yourself. Be proud of yourself that you're watching this video at all bosses. Be proud that you're taking the time out of your very busy day to learn ways to move your voiceover business forward. So just the fact that you're listening to this at all should be applauded.  02:59 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) And even if we back up further, I mean, first of all, congratulations on actually taking the step to being an entrepreneur. I mean, really, that's like step number one is that you had to make a decision, that you wanted to go into business for yourself, and that is something that the majority of people don't do. And so for those that do, take that leap of faith and say I am going to start a business, that is to be commended. That is to be commended. It takes bravery, it takes courage and, again, as Tom said, with the investment, that's a risk. So right now, right off the bat, you've taken risks that you're not quite sure if they're going to pay off or not.  03:37 - Tom Dheere (Co-host) Right, and Anne and I will not blow sunshine up your nose and tell you that everybody who works with us or wants to be a voice actor has a 100% chance of becoming a voice actor, because that's just not the reality. But Anne and I do everything in our power to set you up for success so you can make all of your dreams come true of being whatever kind of voice actor is your perfect voice over day, whether it's an e-learning narrator or a cartoon narrator or an audiobook narrator or what have you. But putting yourself out there and saying, I'm going to take this risk, I mean you should be commended on an internal level that you've made that decision. But here's the other thing and I have a lot of experience with this is all of the external factors that are telling you not to do it and you're like, screw you guys. I'm going to be a voice actor Because I had a lot of people in my life, professionally and personally, who didn't understand what I was trying to do Me too and didn't respect what I was trying to do and would mock me behind my back and to my face.  04:40 I remember I was a head host at the time the busiest Applebee's in the world and would mock me behind my back and to my face. I remember I was a head host at the time the busiest Applebee's in the world and I was the guy that ran the door and would get screamed at by everybody for how long it would take for them to get a table and I had some representation. I was booking work here and there, but not enough to leave my full-time job and a hater fellow employee got on the PA in the middle of a busy shift and said Tom, your agent's on line one and your mommy's on line two.  05:11 Click Ha ha, ha, ha ha. Yeah, that actually happened. I'm getting a little PTSD.  05:19 - Intro (Announcement) You know what I mean. There's a lot of haters out there.  05:21 - Tom Dheere (Co-host) There's a lot of people who are jealous because you are trying to make your dreams come true and either their dreams haven't come true or they don't have any dreams at all.  05:30 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) I love that you brought that up, tom. That's a really lovely perspective Because you're right, just that beginning step, taking that leap of faith and doing something when people assume that probably no, that's not going to work for you, and I think we've all encountered it. So, now that you've taken that step, right now, tom and I are here to encourage you, if it suits you, to encourage you not to give up, because, god, tom, it's hard, it's hard, it's hard, it's not easy. Does it get easier, tom? I don't know. I don't know.  06:00 - Tom Dheere (Co-host) No, it doesn't get any easier, Anne. It just becomes different types of hard. We've talked about this in previous videos, but the challenges that you have when you're early in your voiceover journey, which is I think, those are the toughest sometimes. They are the toughest because they play with your brain. They mess with your head.  06:16 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) They mess with your head.  06:16 - Tom Dheere (Co-host) They mess with your head of? Do I have the ability to make money telling stories, which is really essentially what this is, which is the same problem that actors, stage and theater and on-camera actors have. It's the same problem that musicians have. Musicians are storytellers, you know, all forms of actors are storytellers. Can I make money telling stories? That's really what it comes down to, and many are called, few are chosen, but many are called. Few make the right choices and you, as VO bosses listening to this, are making the right choices.  06:54 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) Few of them stick around right To discover that they did make a good choice. Right, because if you give up too soon, you never know. Right, and again I'll say, the departure from, let's say, corporate is huge. For this right, there's no stable paycheck coming in, and so I think that's a huge sticker shock for people because it's like well, all right, I've done the work, I've paid for coaching, I've got this great demo. Now where's the work?  07:22 And so you're not finished yet, right, that's just the first part, just the first part of your journey is the actual training and then the demo creation, and then, of course, you should always keep up your training, because things change and evolve and you always want to get better. But that's only the very beginning of your entrepreneurship and the beginning of your business. And so, as we mentioned, it does play with your head in the beginning, because a lot of times you're questioning well, do I have what it takes? Am I talented enough? Why am I not getting work? And so you really have to now, if you haven't gotten the proper coaching right, If you haven't spent more than oh, my goodness, I'm going to say you need to spend more than five or six hours coaching with someone before you can really embark on a successful voiceover journey. And we've said that over and over again but, also performance-wise, but also business-wise.  08:10 I mean, thomas, what you do? You help people set up businesses, like all the time. That's what you do, and so that is also a steep learning curve.  08:18 - Tom Dheere (Co-host) It is a steep learning curve. I think one of the biggest challenges for people entering the voiceover industry is that they don't know what they don't know and they need to know. What do I need to have in place to start my voiceover business? So I talk about the four pillars. Every structure needs a solid foundation and in voiceover it's exactly what Anne said Quality training, a professionally produced demo, a setup, vetted home recording studio. And then that fourth pillar is a website, which that's a whole other video.  08:50 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) Yeah, it's another podcast episode too.  08:52 - Tom Dheere (Co-host) Yeah, that's another podcast episode right there. But to have those four pillars in place is critical. But the concrete that you pour, that is that foundation, is the business sense, the business acumen, the business plan. You can have the best demo in the world, but if you don't have a plan to market it effectively, the demo doesn't matter.  09:13 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) And if nobody hears it, they can't buy.  09:15 - Tom Dheere (Co-host) Yeah, you could have the best website in the world, but if you can't get anybody to it, it doesn't matter. So think about that. So many voice actors coming and put the cart before the horse. They decide they want to be a voice actor and then start buying a microphone or jumping on TikTok and making videos and it's like those things are important. But there's an order to do this, because the fact that you, as VO bosses, know what the basics are, what the foundation is training, demos, website, home recording and then pour the concrete of the business and then you can build the house, build the structure, build the business around that.  09:49 Having those things, now you know, are they perfect when you start out? No, do you sometimes need to start over again? Yes, you know what's the carpenter's rule Measure twice, cut once. A lot of times you don't do that, you just dive in with the buzzsaw and hope good things happen. So be encouraged if you have gotten training. Be encouraged if you've produced a demo with Anne or another great coach. Be encouraged if you've built the website. Be encouraged if you've got the basics of a home recording studio. If you've got that in place now you can start to really build and grow and make accurate assessments about who you are in the voiceover industry and how you're doing.  10:26 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) Absolutely, absolutely. And again, it takes that perseverance to understand that it's coming and it's not going to happen overnight. That overnight success took what? Over 10 years to cultivate.  10:41 In that respect, and I think about all of the people who I've known that have stuck it out and have grown. I've seen them grow in the industry, people that are just hot today in the voiceover industry because we've been gosh Tom, you and I have been around for a while. So I've seen people who when they started out, I was with them when they started out, as maybe they were a peep or maybe I worked with them a long time ago, and I'm not saying it's just me, but I mean I've had students that I've seen really stick it out, progress, do the work, and I've really seen them come into their own. But it did not happen in a year, two years. A lot of them have been on a journey for five, six, seven years and it's wonderful to see them really shine.  11:24 And I can name a few of people that I've seen shine. The other day, jen Henry right, I saw she got SAG-AFTRA status. And so there's Jen Henry, there's Stefan Johnson, there's Tawny Plattis, who have been at this for years, making content and not necessarily going out there and saying hire me, I'm a voice actor, but doing their thing and creating so much content so that it got their name out there right, and it got them noticed and then it got them hired, yeah.  11:53 - Tom Dheere (Co-host) We have to mention Danielle Fanball.  11:54 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) Oh, absolutely Danielle. I mean of course as well.  11:57 - Tom Dheere (Co-host) She was a student of mine a few years ago and she has just gone on to be a force in the voiceover industry, getting a high-quality representation, working with tons of clients and all kinds of great projects. She's a perfect example of that as someone who came into the industry hungry, open-minded. She just knocked my socks off, she knocked my socks off.  12:17 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) And, as a matter of fact, we're doing guys if you haven't checked it out the Boss Money series with Danielle. She is not only super talented, voiceover wise, but she's got a very savvy business mind. And we do a series on just talking about money, because that is another point where people can sabotage themselves in the whole money area, absolutely.  12:36 - Tom Dheere (Co-host) Here's the thing about that, anne, is that your relationship with money is critical to your success as a voice actor. And I don't just mean having it, I mean having it is obviously important to invest and reinvest in your voiceover.  12:46 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) And I'm glad you're speaking about it.  12:48 - Tom Dheere (Co-host) Yeah, some people were trained to hate money, some people were trained to be afraid of money, some people were trained to covet money. Some people were trained to not care about money in the house, at school, at their place of worship, among their friends and relatives. And so often you're fighting against the tide of all the preconceived notions that you have about the voiceover industry and about money. Here's the biggest one, anne, is that employees work for money. Yeah, absolutely, self-employed voice actors make money, work for them. That's Robert Kiyosaki, rich.  13:25 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) Dad, Poor Dad stuff. I love that.  13:26 - Tom Dheere (Co-host) Learn to make your money work for you and with you. Learn to have a synergistic relationship with money and your attitude about money when it comes to, obviously, spending it, making it and, most importantly, how to save and invest it in your voiceover career. On a short-term level, you know training, which is also a form of long-term, but also on a long-term, like investing in retirement and long-term investment plans and things like that. So if you are educating yourself, bosses, on what it means to have, make and spend and invest money, you are setting yourself up for success. So, any class you can take with me or with Anne, or any YouTube video that you can watch about investing, empower yourself. Oh my.  14:10 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) God, and that's the biggest thing, how to empower yourself. And I feel like compelled, as I'm thinking of this, to offer more examples. Christina Milizia, as I'm thinking of this, to offer more examples. Christina Milizia gosh, talented from the get-go. I mean, she's been doing voiceover for gosh. How many years? 30 years, over 30 years.  14:28 - Intro (Announcement) A long time.  14:28 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) Yeah, I know that she always had her sights set on being in animation and she really has taken off, but it took her many, many years to get there and she was super talented from the get-go. So, christina Melissa, lila Berzins I mean my gosh, I remember talking to Lila. She was a peep of mine a long time ago and she was just so talented and yet she was always wondering how can I get work, how can I get work? How can I get work and she's so talented? And now, man, she's like so hot and all these people that I'm just so happy for that. They had the gumption to just keep pushing forward, keep doing the work, keep marketing and just keep plugging away and ultimately finding their way in this industry so that they're really reaping the rewards and the benefits.  15:15 - Tom Dheere (Co-host) What all of these fabulous voice actors that you mentioned just now have in common is that they're hungry, they're persistent and they're consistent. Yes, absolutely To be consistent in the voiceover industry with your efforts. You need to be relentless. The voiceover industry does not care how tired you are.  15:33 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) Absolutely.  15:36 - Tom Dheere (Co-host) They don't care what's going on in your life.  15:37 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) It doesn't care about the drama in your life. It really doesn't.  15:40 - Tom Dheere (Co-host) Nope, nope, nope, nope. You either have to learn to put the drama aside or use whatever energy that you get from the drama that's going on in your life and learn how to channel it into something positive or at least consistent. Like I have anxiety. Yeah, I have diagnosed anxiety and I have turned it into a superpower. Anxiety is the fear of not knowing what's going to happen next. You worry and fret about whatever usually social, interpersonal situations or things like that. But as a result of me getting lots and lots of great therapy and just being around and sticking around, I've learned how to turn my anxiety into a superpower, because I'm prepared for everything.  16:22 I'm a firm advocate of Murphy's law Anything that can go wrong will go wrong. So I have all of these tools logistical, physical, environmental, financial, mental, emotional, psychological to anticipate any problems that may arise in my voiceover career, and I am prepared. So if the worst thing that I can think of happens and I'm ready for it it and I am prepared. So if the worst thing that I can think of happens, and I'm ready for it, it's going to be okay. So I turned a disadvantage of mine into an advantage, and you can do that too. All of you can do that too. All of you have your own hangups, anxieties, worries, fears, physical or mental or psychological challenges, but you can either figure out how to overcome them, set them aside or harness them, use them to enhance your voiceover career and enhance your efforts and your results.  17:07 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) And I think also too, is be aware. Be aware of the industry. I mean, be aware of trends in the industry, and not just trends in voiceover industry, but be aware of customers who want to purchase your voice. Be aware of what they want, be aware of what their needs are and really take some time to investigate.  17:24 I don't know many people that take it upon themselves to investigate the market right. So many people are like I've got a great commercial demo, I've got a great animation demo, I've got a great oh gosh. If I could give a nickel for the time somebody said I want to do museum tours, if I could give a nickel for the time somebody said I want to do museum tours or I want to do history. But I implore you, I implore you bosses and I'm not saying you can't do museum tours or be history documentarian I implore you to understand the market size, okay, of how many museums are there, and I'm just using this as an example how many museums are there right in the United States and, by the way, I Googled this just the other day there's about 35,000.  18:03 - Tom Dheere (Co-host) Okay, I was just about to Google that. Thanks for doing the work.  18:05 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) So how often are there new exhibits that might require voiceover? Okay, not that often, because there's a season for exhibits right in museums A lot of times. It's historical, it's been there forever and probably they've got a voice that has been the voice and they've got that system that you put on the headphones and they've had a voiceover there and so they probably don't need to change it if the history hasn't changed, right about it.  18:32 And so if you put all those things together and you say okay, so how many opportunities do I have to become a narrator for museum tours? Right, that's not a huge market compared to again, I always tell people corporate, because that's my shtick but corporate 30.4 million registered companies. They all need to sell a product. They all need to train somebody on that product and or a customer on that product. They need to train their internal staff on safety policies and HR procedures and also how to sell their product. So that's a lot of opportunities. So if you want to know why work isn't coming your way and maybe you've spent all of your money on just the smaller markets, consider really investing time. It doesn't take a lot right to investigate the market for things. All I did was Google how many museums are there in the United States and then think about it how often are they going to need a voice?  19:25 - Tom Dheere (Co-host) Yeah, one thing that a lot of voice actors do early in their journey is disqualify themselves from work that doesn't seem to appeal to them because they only want to do this one thing, yeah, yeah, yeah. The strain of voice actors who want to do the museum tours. I call them PBS voice actors.  19:41 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) Yes, there's so many of them. I'm a PBS person too, me too.  19:44 - Tom Dheere (Co-host) I watch PBS all the time. We adore it. But those that are interested in the intellectual, historical artistic documentaries.  19:52 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) How many documentaries are there? I've done that Google search Also.  19:54 - Tom Dheere (Co-host) Very, very few yeah yeah, right, but it also applies to the cartoon and animation voice actors that are out there.  20:01 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) Oh, absolutely, absolutely.  20:02 - Tom Dheere (Co-host) This is another one.  20:03 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) And now, not only how many animation shows are there, then you've got to think about who hires people to do animation shows. Right, that's typically broadcast, right? Broadcast, you know, on the air or streaming.  20:14 - Tom Dheere (Co-host) Or streaming or streaming right.  20:16 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) But again, those amount of companies that we'll hire are finite, right? 25,000 networks I think you have to Google me and check me, but I did that research as well 25,000 networks, again, compared to the amount of companies out there who have a product to sell, right. Right 25,000 is nothing. And again, remember, they might already have a voice. They maybe aren't looking for a new voice, and so, when those opportunities come around and evolve, those are the ones you'll audition for, along with all the other people who want to do animation.  20:48 I could do corporate narration that talks about the history of a company. Right, it's similar. It's similar. It may not be exactly the same, but it can feel similar. A lot of corporate documentaries are lovely if they've got good writing, but think of those other markets that are larger and will give you more opportunities.  21:15 - Tom Dheere (Co-host) Yes, I always tell my students that all voice acting is storytelling. All genres of voice acting are storytelling. All stories have a beginning, a middle, an end, an arc and a message, whether it's a cartoon character or it's hours of corporate narration.  21:31 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) Absolutely, or even an e-learning lesson. Every lesson has an introduction, points to the lesson and a conclusion.  21:37 - Tom Dheere (Co-host) I approach all of my voiceover work and I do a lot of different genres. Like every week I'm doing political explainer, corporate commercial. I'm doing all kinds of genres every week. I approach all of them from a position of play and a position of storytelling. So people are like, oh you know, but the HR stuff is boring and I'm like you know what so is being hungry, so I find the joy in it.  22:01 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) You have to find the joy in it, because if you find the joy in it, the people that are listening to you will also be inspired and motivated.  22:07 - Tom Dheere (Co-host) Right. So here's something I've learned recently, anne because we're talking about how to motivate our bosses is that I have learned that there are between intrinsic motivators and extrinsic motivators. So you want to find intrinsic and extrinsic motivators to get you to do the things that you need to do to move your voiceover business forward. So, like an extrinsic motivator is, if I do five auditions, I'll give myself a cookie, because you may have trouble being motivated to do auditions, for whatever reason.  22:34 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) Well, I couldn't be giving myself a cookie.  22:36 - Tom Dheere (Co-host) Well, no well, you just lost all that, Maybe an article of clothing or a lipstick?  22:39 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) I'm not sure.  22:40 - Tom Dheere (Co-host) Fine, that's an and thing or whatever, or it's an action figure or a comic book or whatever. So find, if you need some kind of carrot to be able to motivate yourself to do a task, whatever it is voiceover related, whether it's auditions or invoicing or anything else. And then there's intrinsic motivators. What can you find within yourself to make the task more pleasurable? You know like, for example, I'm going to give you the worst, dumbest example in the world is that there's this Disney short. Remember the Disney shorts when we were growing up.  23:08 Yes, absolutely. So there was one of like the chunky park ranger. He would talk like this no-transcript everywhere.  23:23 And the park ranger's like, oh, bother, I wish I wouldn't have to clean all this up by myself. And then all these bears are just lying around hanging out and he's like, hmm, that gives me an idea. And then he goes hey, everybody, we're going to play a game. And all the bears are like, yeah, let's play a game. And he gives all of them a bag and then like a stick with a little spike on it that you use to clean up. Then he's like all right, here we go. First you pick it up, then you put it in the bag, bump, bump. Then you dance around, then you do this Bump, bump, bump, da-da-da-da-da. And then they saw him in the hammock.  24:04 Just kind of relaxing and they're all like wait a minute and then they threw all the garbage all over the place. But he found not in the right way. He found an intrinsic motivator to make a boring or tedious or frightful task more fun and interesting. So it would get done.  24:20 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) I like that example. First of all, thank you, Tom, for that. That's going to be some good sound clips here.  24:25 - Tom Dheere (Co-host) It's in the bag, by the way. Go on Google and just Google. Disney in the bag, and that's the short. It's delightful.  24:30 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) I love it. I love it and you know, honestly, the fact is, most people say I don't know the subject, or it could be boring, or HR policies are boring. I mean, in reality, that, to me, is the challenge. So, if you want to have a creative challenge that stimulates, you, take the most boring material and I want you to make it motivating and inspiring for somebody to listen to, right there. That's all I need. That's all I need is the creative challenge of it for me to be excited by it, and when I'm excited by it, I can stand a chance of making you excited by it. Right, or at least I'm passionate about getting my point across and like saying here OSHA regulations dictate that you need to do this to be safe.  25:10 Now that to me. I want to make that very maybe not exciting for the listener, but I want to make sure that they hear me, and so I have to make sure that I am inspiring and motivating in my own way for my audience, and so I have another.  25:25 - Tom Dheere (Co-host) We'll call it a trick, but, like the stereotypical, most boring form of voiceover is guiding employees through their insurance. Right, that's the stereotypically most quote unquote boring, but this is what I do Whenever I'm tasked with that. I've done that for clients over the years. Is, I think, about the single mom with three kids, one of which has special needs? Sure, and that mom is terrified of picking the wrong prescription plan.  25:53 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) Yeah, absolutely.  25:54 - Tom Dheere (Co-host) So I intrinsically motivate myself by talking just to that single mom, through my subtext and my tone and my cadence and my rhythm. I'm telling that single mom, everything's going to be okay, I'm going to walk you through this.  26:08 - Intro (Announcement) It's a lot easier than you think.  26:10 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) We're going to go through this.  26:11 - Tom Dheere (Co-host) Together. We're going to get through this and you're going to take care of yourself and take care of your children.  26:15 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) I love that you said that, because I have a lot of pharmaceutical stuff. I read the back of labels and so I'm always imagining I am that patient that I'm frantically looking at the back of the label because I need to know what my dosage is, or obviously I've probably had 10 of the symptoms already and therefore I must take myself to the hospital immediately because I'm experiencing all the symptoms. But I say that sarcastically, but in I say that sarcastically but in reality that is kind of me, I mean, and so I will read that label with that compassion and understanding that people need to hear the important things and that's what makes me excited about what I do. And I love how we've just discussed the motivation for people to because this is hard, right to make it less hard so that you can experience joy in all aspects of this career, in all stages and phases of this career, because it's not going to happen overnight, guys. It just it does not happen 0.00001% of the time. Maybe there's one person who has experienced success, but not overnight. I don't know of anyone in this industry.  27:18 So good discussion, bosses, don't give up. Don't give up. Motivate yourself, stick it out, do the work, understand that it's not easy. And does it get easier? I mean, I know that we discussed this already. Does it get easier? Not really, because I think we always find new challenges, we're always evolving, we're always growing. So keep your eyes on the marketplace, keep your eyes on how you can evolve as a business and, because that is going to help you stay in the market, it's going to help you stay successful once you get there. Good discussion, tom. Thank you so much for that valuable input and that wonderful character that you I don't remember the name of the park ranger.  27:56 - Tom Dheere (Co-host) But you can find it Now.  27:56 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) I've got to find the park ranger name. All right, bosses, I'm going to give a great big shout out to our sponsor, ipdtl. You too can connect and network and listen to Tom Dheere like a boss, while he does his character impressions and myself I didn't do any character. Maybe next podcast, tom.  28:15 - Tom Dheere (Co-host) Now. You have to do it next time.  28:24 - Anne Ganguzza (Host) Now.  28:24 - Intro (Announcement) I'm going. You have to do it next time. Yeah, now I'm going to have to do it. Find out more at IPDTLcom. You guys have an amazing week and we'll see you next week. Bye, bye. Join us next week for another edition of VO Boss with your host, anne Ganguza, and take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at vobosscom and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies and new ways to rock your business like a boss. Redistribution, with permission, coast-to-coast connectivity via IPDTL.