Direct vs. Indirect Marketing

BOSSes, Anne Ganguzza is joined by Tom Dheere to tackle a topic many voice actors fear most: marketing. In this episode, they break down the essential difference between direct marketing (you go to them) and indirect marketing (they come to you). The hosts discuss how to make both strategies work for you, offering a powerful, actionable roadmap for building a sustainable voiceover business. 00:01 - Anne (Host) Hey boss listeners. Are you ready to turn your voiceover career goals into achievements? With my personalized coaching and demo production, I'm here to help you reach new milestones. You know you're already part of a boss community that strives for the very best. Let's elevate that. Your success is my next project. Find out more at anneganguzza.com.  00:25 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) It's time to take your business to the next level, the boss level. These are the premier business owner strategies and successes being utilized by the industry's top talent today. Rock your business like a boss a VO boss. Now let's welcome your host, Anne Ganguzza.  00:44 - Anne (Host) Hey everyone, welcome to the VO Boss podcast and the Real Boss series. I'm your host, Anne Ganguzza, and I'm here with Mr Tom Dheere. Hello, hello, hello, the Real Boss, Tom Dheere.  00:56 - Tom (Guest) Hi, I'm seeing the light ring in my glasses. I'm going to change. I want to change these.  01:01 - Anne (Host) Wait, I thought you said I'm seeing the light.  01:03 - Tom (Guest) I'm seeing the light. Well, yeah, no, but the light was seeing me and my glasses, so I'm switching over. I have, like different pairs of glasses for where I'm at.  01:11 - Anne (Host) No, really. So like these are better. I hear that. I hear that Yours are part of a marketing strategy.  01:18 - Tom (Guest) Mine are purely because my eyeballs are decomposing. I can hear them.  01:22 - Anne (Host) But me too, though, I need them as well, and I figure I might as well make them part of a marketing strategy. And speaking of marketing, yes. Great segue, isn't it? I think it's one of the most feared things for any voice actor is to actually think and do marketing, and so it's a great topic to talk about, because, I mean, we could talk like multiple podcasts about it, but let's talk about marketing Indirect marketing, direct marketing. They're both important.  01:49 - Tom (Guest) Yes, absolutely.  01:50 - Anne (Host) Let's distinguish the difference.  01:52 - Tom (Guest) Right, and this is the thing that when most people come into the voiceover industry, they think and their instinct is correct, so I need to market myself. What does that mean? For most people, it's slamming into social media sideways and talking about what they had for breakfast, or it most often means cold calls and cold emails. Now, you can clearly lump all of that stuff together into marketing, but there's a lot more to it. It's a lot more nuanced than that.  02:18 - Anne (Host) You say the word cold calls and I think people go cold. I know they do. They're like oh no cold calls now.  02:25 - Tom (Guest) So the way I talk about it is that there is direct marketing and then there is indirect marketing, also known as active marketing or passive marketing. So direct or active marketing is when you are seeking out specific potential clients and you are basically grabbing them by the lapels and saying, hey, you give me money to say stuff out loud.  02:48 - Anne (Host) Here I am. Hello, this is me.  02:50 - Tom (Guest) Hello, right Now that's a cold call, that is a cold email. There's also follow-up emails and getting your seven touches.  02:57 - Anne (Host) And that's direct, because it's direct contact with a potential client.  03:01 - Tom (Guest) Exactly. And then there is indirect marketing, which is where you're kind of like doing your thing over here in hopes that people or robots will notice you Right and come to you Right. So, for example, working on search engine optimization on your website, that's a form of indirect marketing or passive marketing, because if somebody's searching for you, hopefully your website or your content will rank higher on Google, bing, yahoo and they'll be like, hey, who's this person? And then they reach out to you Right.  03:30 - Anne (Host) Or they're seeing you on social media.  03:32 - Tom (Guest) Social media, exactly, is another perfect example of indirect marketing. So that's where you're kind of like demonstrating your value, your progress, your humanity as a voice actor and a person, in hopes that it will get voice seekers' attention and be engaged with your content and hopefully you'll stay top of mind for future projects.  03:50 - Anne (Host) An easy I would say an easy way of thinking about it is direct marketing. You go to them In direct marketing. They're coming to you.  03:58 - Tom (Guest) Exactly. Yeah, that's exactly right.  04:00 - Anne (Host) I think, equally terrifying for voice actors yes, yes, I think that it's great that we made the distinction now between the two.  04:09 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) And.  04:09 - Anne (Host) I think the one that really causes people probably the most terror is the direct marketing part of it, because they have to reach out to someone who is a complete stranger to them and that we are a complete stranger to them and they're a complete stranger to us. And so direct marketing, I think, requires, I think, a little more knowledge, so it makes it a little less scary.  04:29 - Tom (Guest) I think so too.  04:36 - Anne (Host) That's the way I see it, and what I try to explain to a lot of my students who talk about marketing and their fear of marketing is, of course, all the indirect methods, which they're probably much more apt to do, because they can create a blog, they can go on social media, they can create a video, they can do things like that, and that to them, I think, is more of a concrete path than oh my God, I got to go find someone. Who do I reach out to, what do I say and how does that work? And so I think the first distinction that I want to make with direct marketing is to make it less terrifying. Is that I want to make with direct marketing is to make it less terrifying is just an understanding that people have needs. How many times can I bring up the Chanel lipstick, right?  05:09 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) How many times it's a great example.  05:10 - Anne (Host) I just keep going back to it where here's the Chanel lipstick. It is part of my brand and I want to work with this company, chanel, and so ultimately, they don't know who I am. I mean, I kind of know who they are, but I don't know exactly who I should contact. And so when does Chanel have a need for voiceover? Right, when they have a campaign, right when they have a campaign and when maybe they have a voiceover and they want to replace that voice, and so it's very much based on need and when they need voiceover, a voiceover.  05:41 It's not that. Oh, I'm going to reach out and I never heard back and therefore that's a bad lead or it didn't work or I'm done. I failed. You cannot think that, guys, because it's all on a timely basis, so when I need a new lipstick, I'm not constantly searching for a new lipstick, but when I need one, then if an email comes my way or a social media ad comes my way talking about a new shade of red, I'll be like, oh, I need that, let me look into it.  06:10 And that's the same thing that, as a voice actor, you need to understand about direct marketing.  06:14 - Tom (Guest) Right, put it another way. And what are the client's pain points? How can you cure what ails them? How can you solve their problems? So I'm going to take your Chanel lipstick example and I'm going to continue it. So let's put it in voiceover terms Chanel wants to advertise that lipstick. So they want to make advertisements of some sort. It could be print, it could be digital, it could be TV, radio streaming or whatever. Right, chanel?  06:42 - Anne (Host) Look to me, Chanel. I talk about you all the time. I'm just saying In my podcast Please make Anne a compensated endorser for your lovely products.  06:51 - Tom (Guest) So Chanel usually would have to hire a marketing agency or an ad firm or something like that to come up with whatever. The concept would be. Okay, well, this is Chanel, it's this type of lipstick, we're targeting this type of audience, or they?  07:04 have it in-house or they have it in-house and they'll say, okay, well, our demographic is women of this particular age range.  07:19 Okay, so we need to make sure that the content and context of the advertisement is making sure that we're targeting that particular demographic.  07:22 It needs to appeal to them on a visual or an auditory level or some other combination of that. Maybe we need to get an influencer in here or a celebrity or something like that, but we still need a voice actor to do whatever the radio or streaming or TV is. So they come up with a concept, they write the script. Now they need to get a production company to turn this script into reality and then the production company now this is where they have choices. They can go to a casting director and a casting director and the casting director can then reach out to agents and managers to find the voice actors. They can post that casting notice on a casting site like a Voice 123 or a VO Planet or a Badalgo, or they can have their own roster of voice actors that every time a casting notice comes up, they go through their own list of voice actors. That every time a casting notice comes up, they go through their own list of voice actors and then send the casting notices out to the appropriate voice actors to collect auditions right.  08:12 - Anne (Host) Before you continue, I'm going to intercept and say all right, let's talk about how often do they need this right? That is something that is the big unknown right. How often are they needing a new campaign? And that is something that I think is the most ambiguous, maybe, to the voice actor, because we don't know we don't work for the company, we don't know how often they need these new ads. So what I don't want people to expect, and I think what a lot of people do expect, is like well, I reached out to them and they don't want me. Well, they don't have a need for you Yet. Yeah, and I don't think it's appropriate to think that any one company needs a voice actor 24-7.  08:48 - Tom (Guest) Unless you're Joseph Riano.  08:50 - Anne (Host) But that's a different genre, right. That's promo, that's a different genre, that's promo and that's actually a network right.  08:55 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) Right.  08:55 - Anne (Host) That, yeah, you're required to do these ads because things change all the time. Chanel lipstick how often are they coming up with new colors? How often are they coming up with new colors? There's seasons, right? How often are they coming up with new lipsticks? Right? That is not necessarily a daily. Companies don't come out with new products every single day, so therefore they may not have a need. So please keep that in mind, guys, because I think a lot of people get discouraged when they don't hear back. Marketing is the long haul. It's a marathon, not a sprint.  09:21 - Tom (Guest) Yeah, getting auditions from your agents and managers and getting auditions from online casting sites. Those are short term. There's an audition right now. You audition for it right now Because they've had a need Right. Using direct and indirect marketing strategies is a long-term investment in developing relationships with clients Big distinction. A lot of people argue oh, agents are better than this and this is better than that, and none of that is true.  09:46 All of it's extremely subjective, based on the genres of voiceover that you want to do and the marketing methods and comfort level that you have with technology and interpersonal stuff. Like some people will be like I'll make cold calls all day. I love doing it. And some people are like I'm terrified of talking to people. I will only post stuff on social media and I will only talk about in a very narrow way and all of that is fine. But to Anne's point. Well, first off, we're thinking about them a lot more than they're thinking about us.  10:13 - Anne (Host) Oh my God, yes, amen, amen. That is so very true, because we want to be hired by them.  10:19 - Tom (Guest) Right, of course, and to Anne's point, they don't need any voiceover for a product or service or brand at this moment in time, and when they do, it may not necessarily be you and a lot of the times they don't have any control over the product or service or brand and what the demands there are from the end client or the ad agency or the marketing firm or the campaign that dictates the quality and quantity of the demographics of the voice actors that they're needed for that particular campaign. Right, and with a campaign that dictates the quality and quantity of the demographics of the voice actors that they're needed for that particular campaign.  10:48 - Anne (Host) Right, and with a campaign, typically they want to have, like in any kind of a brand, consistency right. Typically, if there's a product and you're the voice of that product or that brand, it typically is something that will be recurring for a certain amount of time. It's not like today's ad is going to feature my voice and tomorrow it's going to feature somebody else's voice. They want to work in a little bit of consistency for that brand and that includes the voice. So understand that they're not having a need for a new voice actor every single time they're airing the ad or putting it out there on social media. That may be.  11:19 You are a voice for a campaign which runs for a certain length of time, which is why we base our rates especially when it's broadcast right on where it's being played and for how long Because we are a voice for that particular time, for that particular campaign. Now, if they want to extend that right, they will pay to extend that or they'll find a new voice if they're looking for that.  11:42 - Tom (Guest) Right, we love the rebuys where you narrate something and it's good for a certain period. I got that phone call two weeks ago. I did a social media ad and for a six month term, and they literally called me on the phone. They're like, hey, they want to do it again, bill us, yeah, and I just build them. And they're like, oh, and we have two more spots. That's the wonderful part.  11:59 - Anne (Host) But the thing is is like for that particular brand, right Voice actors. If you're going to reach out to that same company and say, hey, I'm a voice actor, hire me. Well, they've got Tom right For reasons within the campaign. If his voice is working and that's what they want, they're going to continue to have Tom. So don't take it personally, don't beat Tom up.  12:19 - Tom (Guest) Tom is like sorry not sorry, Sorry, not sorry Sorry not sorry, sorry, not sorry.  12:22 - Anne (Host) I think we just have sometimes a very narrow view of what it's like on the other side of the glass and to have that need and that desire to create a campaign with a voice, and so you have to be understanding of the way it works.  12:34 - Tom (Guest) Yeah, another point on that is that late last year a voice actor posted on Facebook an infographic that I want to say it was. An explainer video producer posted an infographic. They tracked the amount of hours that it takes to produce an explainer video, which obviously includes concept writing, storyboard, budget, legal department, music and all of that stuff, and the amount, the percentage that involved the voice actor, was 1.5%. Yeah, 1.5%. So often we as voice actors are an afterthought.  13:06 - Anne (Host) Yeah, we're the last part of the journey there.  13:08 - Tom (Guest) Yeah, and sometimes I'll just ask around the office, or their niece, who's a musical theater major, and they just give it to them and that's it.  13:15 - Anne (Host) But yes, obviously casting notices are posted everywhere all the time and it's so funny because I mean, when I'm doing oh, it's funny because I'm dabbling a little bit in fashion and when I'm creating videos, I mean my main thing is that I'm talking about the brand or I'm showcasing the brand, but a lot of times the videos don't even require the voice. Unless I'm directly talking about the brand, I can put music behind it. And it's funny because in my process of creating the video right for, let say, the brands that I'm working for the last thing I put in is the voice. It's the last thing I do, unless I'm doing a direct-to-camera like hey guys, this is an amazing product. Then it all happens together, right, and then the video editing happens and my voice is already there talking about it.  13:57 But a lot of times I'm not necessarily, or I'm doing a voiceover after the fact, and so, yeah, we become like the last part of the project, and so that's something to also be aware of. It's not that we're not important, we're very important, but you have to understand where in the chain of events that it happens. That's why people, when they cast, they want to cast typically like quickly, right, they want to find that voice and just put it into the video that's already been done, and then music and sound effects, because, again, like Tom you mentioned, we're typically the last part.  14:31 - Tom (Guest) Yeah, and from what I've noticed in my casting notices over the past decade or so is that the turnaround time for casting is usually about 48 hours, and then from the recording of it is probably another 48 hours. Sometimes it's even quicker than that. So usually that means if this project took six weeks or two months or whatever that means at most not. I'm not saying a week is spent on the voiceover, it's just that everything that needs to happen regarding the voiceover is probably a handful of hours within one week, and then that's it.  15:04 So the point is, bosses, is that if you are engaging in direct marketing strategies, like cold calls or emails, and you're doing your follow-up emails and reaching out on social media, like directly in sending the messages and stuff like that you have to manage your expectations. I was reading a study that since 2014, the return on cold calls and emails has dropped by 10% every year for the past 10 years. And guess what? 10% times 10 years equals 100%. So it doesn't mean they're not effective at all anymore. But now the expectation of them actually getting your email or answering your phone call and responding positively is between 1% and 3%. It is a very, very small percentage, which means also this is a numbers game.  15:49 - Anne (Host) Yeah, absolutely Absolutely, but it's not impossible.  15:52 - Tom (Guest) No, it's not impossible. You want to be smart about it.  15:55 - Anne (Host) Yeah, what I'm always telling people because I have a Boss Blast product and I know you also do a lot of educational courses on direct marketing. It's something that you need to understand. It's definitely a marathon, not a sprint, kind of a game, and the good thing about it is that once you do connect and once you're in front of the eyes of someone who has the power to hire you and award you the gig, typically you want to stay top of mind, and that's when you're talking about marketing. Staying top of mind is always a good thing. You're talking about marketing. Staying top of mind is always a good thing. That's when they'll call you and say, hey, we want to extend this for another 13 weeks or we want to extend this again. So once you hook them, hopefully you keep them, and that's where the challenge is.  16:36 You know auditions. You know there's a need already. You audition and they cast because they're at that stage in the project where that's what they need. Right, they need that voice. But when you're direct marketing and you're reaching out, they may not have that need right away. They might think about you and say, oh okay, I like that voice. I don't have a need for her right now, but maybe let me put her to the side and let's when another campaign comes up that I think she's good for and I get that all the time when I'm on a few different rosters They'll contact me directly and say, hey look, I think you'd be a perfect voice for this campaign. Can you send me an audition? And typically, boom, that's good because it's a cold lead that turned into a warm lead and that is nice because I didn't have to really do much effort because I'm on his radar.  17:18 So when you're direct marketing, tom, the other important thing to understand is not only how it works right and understand and the expectations. It is how do you know who to contact right? And how do you contact them without being spammed? Because, guess what? We all get spam every single day. I get phone calls still that I don't pick up the phone. I get emails that are scammers, that are just junk email I don't even bother to look at. I see the subject line and I'm like nope, so I'm not going to be spamming. In today's world where it is getting increasingly hard. How do you do it right? That's the question, that's the golden question, right? How do you do it? How do you get their attention?  17:55 - Tom (Guest) Well, I've learned a couple of just some just brief bullet pointy bits of advice is be concise, be brief, be professional, but be you as much as you can If you have a very formal subject line or a very prim and proper paragraph. Hi, my name is this, I do this, I do that, I can do this, and every sentence starts with the word I Delete Immediate turn off.  18:21 - Anne (Host) It's about how you can help the company.  18:23 - Tom (Guest) Yes, it's how you can bring value to their company. It's not about you Solve their pain point. Exactly, solve the pain point. What can you do for them? But don't make it I, I, I Make it about. You need this, you need this. Your problem is this your problem can be solved with my services as a voice actor, but at the same time, be you as much as you can be you, be as personable as you can. Funny goes a long way and showing that you know about them.  18:54 - Anne (Host) Yes, because it becomes like these are two strangers meeting in the night, right? So what makes that meeting more agreeable? Well, if I have done my homework, it's kind of like God the olden days, tom, when I used to go on interviews for like corporate jobs. Right, you wouldn't go into a corporate interview for a job and not know anything about the company that you're applying to.  19:15 Right, I mean that was the biggest no-no was no. You've got to understand what does the company make, what are the products that it makes and what is it that is attracting you to this company? So if you can offer some insight into their company and why it is that you feel it would be a beneficial partnership, then definitely reaching out with how you can solve their pain point and showing that you're interested in them and not just like I, I, I and I'm a great voice actor and listen to my talent. It's not about you at all. It's about how you can help them right to sell their product or to sell their brand.  19:48 - Tom (Guest) Yeah, your job is a problem solver. Yeah, don't treat them like a cash register and your email is a crowbar.  19:54 - Anne (Host) Oh, I like that, that visual.  19:57 - Tom (Guest) You know he's kind of like give me the money to say the things have you said that before?  20:00 - Anne (Host) Did you just grab that from there? That was great.  20:02 - Tom (Guest) I've said it in various permutations of that over the years. But yeah, yeah, I've also said we try to treat voice seekers like ATMs. Yeah, because we only see them as these machines that can give us money. Yeah, absolutely. These are people that have their own needs and challenges.  20:17 They are human beings that have their own struggles creative, logistical, financial, cultural struggles. And if voiceover is 1.5% of their thought processes in any given project, 5% of their thought processes in any given project, you want that 1.5% to be maybe the easiest and most entertaining, 1.5% to make everything a little bit easier.  20:38 - Anne (Host) Don't give them homework. That's what I always say. Don't give them homework, Don't make them try to research you. Don't give them homework. Just be there to let them know that you can help them and that you have a genuine interest in their company, in their product, in wanting to serve them and to help them, to make their jobs easier. Really, I think that's the point, and anybody that's worked in the corporate world knows that they want their job to be easier. They're working for someone, typically, and they have a lot on their plate. They don't want to be bogged down by, oh my God, a big, lengthy email that is going on and on and on and self-serving.  21:14 I know that when I get emails and I like to talk a lot. I think that's the problem, Tom. As voice actors, we like to talk right, and sometimes that transcribes right into our emails. I used to write these emails that were like paragraphs, paragraphs. Nobody has time for that and I would love to write paragraphs of an email and I would spend so much time.  21:32 I remember when I broke down what I did in my corporate job. I spent the majority of my time writing customer service emails and they were long emails and the funny thing is, I would get offended if people three quarters of the way down, if I put an important fact and then somebody wrote me back and then asked me a question about that fact, I'd be like how could you not have read that email? I spent so much time on it Because people don't have the capacity right to read a big, long, horribly boring email and also you are encroaching upon their time. I get so many emails a day, Tom, we've talked about this before. I have like a million some odd unread emails in my Gmail on purpose, because I want to see the marketing. I want to see the marketing that people are doing, and you just have to understand that you're taking up a part of their day, and so I think you need to like, deserve that.  22:18 And you need to prove that you're worthy of that 1.5% of their time. And so that means, if they don't want to hear from you again, if you've presented yourself in a way where they don't have a need for you, or maybe you I don't know, maybe you're all self-serving and they're like I don't need this they need to have a way to not get those emails from you ever, ever again. So there are legal ramifications of you reaching out to somebody unsolicited, typically in any direct marketing. That is the next thing that I want to bring up.  22:46 Tom, in any direct marketing you have to have permission to send an email. And if you don't necessarily have direct permission, you have to offer them a way to opt out of the emails that you send to them. And that includes, when you send that cold email, something at the bottom that says if you would like to unsubscribe to these emails, give them a way to opt out of that. And you also must provide and this is just good business measure you have to provide legally an address of your company on your emails. So when you send those emails out, you have to give them a way to opt out of the emails and you have to give them your business address.  23:23 - Tom (Guest) Absolutely, because you don't want the internet to give you the ban. Hammer if you're sending out hundreds or thousands of these emails at the same time. Manhammer if you're sending out hundreds or thousands of these emails at the same time. So I've heard recently that the era of spray and pray is over, but it's not just for all the marketing value pain points provide value stuff, but it's also because of the internet, as we as a people has just had it with all of these spammy carbon copy templaty desperate has just had it with all of these spammy carbon copy templaty. Desperate, aggressive, obnoxious, self-aggrandizing emails that we're getting over and over again, because we can't tell what's real and what's fake anymore when the phone rings or when an email comes in or when we see a social media post. So people are cracking down and being like we have no tolerance for this. I would rather send less emails that have more value than more emails that have more value than more emails that have value, and hope for the occasional hit.  24:13 - Anne (Host) And again, if you are sending out mass emails and that's a whole nother thing with direct marketing, not many people have the provision to send out thousands of emails at one time because most, unless you're paying for that service, which I do for the boss blast I pay for that service. I am able to send out lots of emails at a time. It's done through a server which doesn't do it all at once. And also the people that I'm sending it to have already opted in to me, marketing to them, and still, at the very least, I have to put. Here's a way to opt out and here's my business address and they only allow from my domain, the, and they only allow from my domain, the VO Boss domain. So anybody that buys a Boss Blast, you are actually getting a list that has already opted in to be marketed to and they have all the legal rights to opt out if they want.  24:58 Most people don't, because they've opted in for a reason, but it's something that I would say most voice actors can't afford because you typically pay by the contact. So my server, which is ActiveCampaign, I pay by the contact, so contact. So my server, which is ActiveCampaign, I pay by the contact. So I have a few hundred thousand contacts that I pay for in order to be able to send emails out to that, and that's not something necessarily that every voice actor has the budget to do, which is why I offered the Boss Blast.  25:22 And this isn't all just about the Boss Blast, but it's anytime you're talking about doing direct mail, quality over quantity unless you have the provision to send out quantity, which is something that I pay thousands of dollars for, and I also make sure I got all the legal ramifications for people to opt out if they need to. But you need to do the same thing on a smaller scale, and direct marketing, I feel, is one of the methods of marketing that needs to be implemented so that in combination with indirect marketing. And you've got to do it. Gosh Tom, how much percentage of your time would you say? I would say 80%, if not a little bit more when things are lean.  25:58 - Tom (Guest) Yeah, when things are slow I immediately go to market, absolutely. But when things are busy, I have learned also to keep doing my marketing. So there, aren't as many slow periods.  26:09 So, yes, direct marketing can and should be part of a balanced breakfast. That is, every voice actor. If you can get quality representation audition through your agents and managers, if you understand how to feed the algorithms of online casting sites, use them to keep the flow of auditions coming in. Direct marketing with thoughtful, value-driven emails. Indirect marketing with thoughtful, value-driven emails. Indirect marketing with thoughtful value-driven blog posts, blog entries and social media posts. You should be doing, ideally, some combination of all of these as often as you can to maximize your opportunities to get the voiceover auditions that you desire.  26:47 - Anne (Host) And always be cultivating your next client, even if you're super busy. I think that's the most important thing that I've learned over the many years that I've been in the business here is always be cultivating your next client, because your clients, even if you've had them for years and years and years, they're never guaranteed. And the best in the business will say the same. So good conversation, Tom. I think we could talk about marketing in 500 more episodes.  27:10 But I think this is a great start guys to understand that it is a necessary evil and it's not scary. It's really not scary. You need to embrace the challenge that is marketing and, again, I like to look at everything as a challenge. That's what gives me joy in my business and also one of the reasons why I did create the VL Boss Blast was because I didn't have a ton of time to do the indirect marketing, although I do that a lot too. So everybody needs a balanced breakfast of both indirect and direct marketing. And, tom, thank you again for always being such a golden nugget of wisdom in my podcast.  27:42 - Tom (Guest) Thank you, I love it.  27:44 - Anne (Host) I'm going to give a great big shout out to our sponsor, ipdtl. Yes, you too can be a boss, a real boss and find out more at IPDTLcom. You guys have an amazing week and we'll see you next time. Bye.  27:59 - Speaker 2 (Announcement) Join us next week for another edition of VO Boss with your host, Anne Ganguzza, and take your business to the next level. Sign up for our mailing list at vobosscom and receive exclusive content, industry revolutionizing tips and strategies and new ways to rock your business like a boss. Redistribution with permission. Coast to coast connectivity via IPDTL.