255 Redeeming Our Time with Jordan Raynor

255. Redeeming Our Time with Jordan Raynor   “But as for you, be strong and do not lose courage, for there is reward for your work.” 2 Chronicles 15:7 AMP   **Transcription Below**   Jordan Raynor is a leading voice of the faith and work movement. Through his bestselling books (The Sacredness of Secular Work, Redeeming Your Time, The Creator in You, and The Royal in You.), keynote speeches, podcasts, and devotionals, Jordan has helped millions of Christians in every country on earth connect the gospel to their work.    In addition to his writing and speaking, Jordan serves as the Executive Chairman of Threshold 360, a venture-backed tech startup which Jordan previously ran as CEO following a string of successful ventures of his own.    Questions and Topics We Cover: 1. What does it look like, practically, to live on earth as it is in Heaven? 2. From your time studying of the Bible, do you find a difference in how our call to work applies to both men and women?  3. What are some ways we can pass along this wisdom to our children?   Other Episode Mentioned from The Savvy Sauce: Stewarding Technology for More Intentional Relationships  with Joey Odom Related Episodes on The Savvy Sauce: Being Intentional with Marriage, Parenting, Rest, Personal development, and Leadership with Pastor, Podcaster, and Author, Jeff Henderson Practical Life Tips with Blogger, Rach Kincaid Implementing Bite-Size Habits That Will Change Your Life with Author, Blogger, Podcaster, and Speaker, Kat Lee Fruitful with Laura Dugger Ordering Your Priorities with Kat Lee Living Intentionally with Shunta Grant Cultivate What Matters in 2021 with Emily Thomas Rhythms of Renewal with Gabe and Rebekah Lyons Divine Productivity with Matt Perman Why Limits Are Good For Us with Kelly Kapic   Thank You to Our Sponsor:  Sam Leman Eureka   Connect with The Savvy Sauce Our Website, Instagram or Facebook    Please help us out by sharing this episode with a friend, leaving a 5-star rating and review, and subscribing to this podcast!   Gospel Scripture: (all NIV)   Romans 3:23 “for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,”   Romans 3:24 “and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.”   Romans 3:25 (a) “God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood.”    Hebrews 9:22 (b) “without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”    Romans 5:8 “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”    Romans 5:11 “Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.”    John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.”   Romans 10:9 “That if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.”    Luke 15:10 says “In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.”   Romans 8:1 “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”   Ephesians 1:13–14 “And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession- to the praise of his glory.”   Ephesians 1:15–23 “For this reason, ever since I heard about your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the saints, I have not stopped giving thanks for you, remembering you in my prayers. I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints, and his incomparably great power for us who believe. That power is like the working of his mighty strength, which he exerted in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly realms, far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come. And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.”   Ephesians 2:8–10 “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God‘s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Ephesians 2:13 “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.“   Philippians 1:6 “being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.”   **Transcription**   [00:00:00] <music>   Laura Dugger: Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, where we have practical chats for intentional living. I'm your host Laura Dugger, and I'm so glad you're here.    [00:00:18] <music>   Laura Dugger: The principles of honesty and integrity that Sam Leman founded his business on continue today over 55 years later at Sam Leman Chevrolet Eureka. Owned and operated by the Bertschi family, Sam Leman in Eureka appreciates the support they've received from their customers all over central Illinois and beyond. Visit them today at Lemangm.com.    I am pleased to get to introduce you to my guest, author, speaker, entrepreneur, Jesus lover, and family man, Jordan Raynor. We're going to discuss what God's word has to say about topics such as the afterlife and then what that means now for how we spend our time and what work we get to do both as men and women.   Jordan is a content producer and much of our conversation today is a follow-up to one of his books entitled, Redeeming Your Time: 7 Biblical Principles for Being Purposeful, Present, and Wildly Productive. [00:01:31]    Here's our chat.    Welcome to The Savvy Sauce, Jordan.   Jordan Raynor: Laura, it's great to be here. Thanks for having me.   Laura Dugger: Well, it is truly my pleasure. I'd love just to begin here. How did you find your way into the work that you get to do today?   Jordan Raynor: I spent the majority of my career as a tech entrepreneur. I still have a foot in that world as executive chairman of the last company that I ran, but I spent 10 years full-time as a tech startup CEO.    I was in the process of exiting my second company when this kind of all started for me. So, you know, when you sell two companies, the natural thing to do is go start a third. So that was kind of the plan.    But for a hot minute there, my wife and I were really seriously thinking about planting a church. Why? Because I went to church often feeling this guilt that I think a lot of believers have felt of, Man, how dare I want to go to work and build a business tomorrow when there's a need for people to serve as pastors and move to mud huts 5,000 miles away from home to make disciples. [00:02:39]    So we're praying about these two paths: start another business, plan a church. One week after church, this mentor of mine pulled me aside. He's like, "Hey, I heard you're thinking about planting a church."    And I'm thinking this guy's going to pat me on the back, maybe write me my first check. He just looks me dead in the eyes, is like, "Yeah, I got to be honest, it sounds really dumb for you." Like, personally, I was like, "Oh, okay. Tell me more." He's like, "Listen, Jordan, you're a talented entrepreneur. You've served your customers and your team members and your investors with excellence. Why do you think you have to plant a church to do ministry? Don't you get that your work as an entrepreneur is ministry?"   I was like, "Yeah, no, I get it. I build these companies so I can write big checks to the missionaries, picture on my refrigerator, or share the gospel with my team members." He's like, "Yeah, but like so much more than that." I was like, "I have no idea what you're talking about."    So he's like, "Here's what I want you to do with this conversation, the background of your mind, I want you to read Genesis one and two." [00:03:39] And I'm thinking, "I've read Genesis one, two, five hundred times. What am I going to say? It's new."   But Laura, what I saw changed my life forever. I saw that before God tells us that He is loving or holy or omnipotent, He tells us that He is a God who works and creates. It's literally the first verb in the Bible. It's the only thing we know about God's character until Genesis 1:26, well, God says, let us make humankind in our image. Why? So that they may rule and work like God did long before the great commission to make disciples.    In Genesis 1, we see this first commission that God never once retracts for you and I to make culture. And that just stopped me dead in my tracks. So long story short, I did not go plant a church. I went and ran somebody else's company. But it set me on this search to really understand how the church's theology of work has gotten so, so lost. [00:04:38]    And it's led to the work I do today, which is creating a whole lot of content through books and podcasts and whatever, helping Christians understand the biblical story of work and God's plan for work from Genesis 1 all the way to Revelation 22 and respond to that truth in practical ways in how they do their work outside and inside of the home today.   Laura Dugger: Wow. Okay. So definitely want to talk about work, but then even zooming out bigger picture of our time, that some of the content that you've written about, and I'm specifically thinking about redeeming your time. So what would you say, Jordan, is one of your biggest cautions for us to consider, especially as it relates to ways that are culturally acceptable to spend our time, but they're not eternally wise ways to spend our time?   Jordan Raynor: Yeah, it's a really good question. [00:05:36] I think maybe the most significant one though is not where we spend it but how we spend it. I think culture outside of the church largely views time as a means of glorifying self, of pleasing self, of accumulating experiences and leisure.   It's the whole bucket list mentality, right? The purpose of your time now is to do it all because this is your only chance to do everything you want to do. And that's a deeply unbiblical lie that I think is one of Satan's favorites to peddle to believers and non-believers alike.   And so I think as believers, the gospel ought to compel us to not just manage our time for profit and for pleasure, but to redeem the time, as Paul says in Ephesians 5:15-16, to eternal ends, to things that are eternal.    And yes, that means souls, but it means way more than souls. I think a lot of times when we think about eternal uses of our time, we think exclusively in that bucket of evangelism. And Jesus didn't. [00:06:36] In fact, He spent 80% of His adult life swinging a hammer and making excellent tables and chairs. He spent time turning water into good wine and pursuing justice in the world and beauty in the world.    And I think all of that matters to God. I think all of that can be an eternally significant use of our time if, if, and this is the big IF, we're doing all those things with Christ-like love and compassion and excellence and in accordance with God's good and perfect word.   Laura Dugger: I guess you're starting to answer this, but I'm thinking then of the flip side of that question. What would you say are ways that God's will can be done on earth as it is in heaven?   Jordan Raynor: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that we could spend hours and hours and hours answering that question. I think we got to be clear though on what we mean by that term "heaven". [00:07:35] Because for the first time in church history, for the last 200 or 300 years or so, Christians, when they hear that word heaven, think almost exclusively about the present heaven, this amorphous, disembodied souls floating on clouds, which was not the hope of Jesus, it was not the ultimate hope of the writers of the New Testament.    God did not promise to fit us for heaven to dwell with Him there, as we sing every Christmas. He promised heaven on earth and to dwell with us here. See Revelation 21 and 22. And that's the "on earth" part.   So when we expand our thinking beyond heaven is only this place that disembodied souls go to in the future and we understand heaven as a state of affairs that is breaking into the present — Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is at hand — I think it greatly expands our vision of what it means to work in ways and manage our time in ways where God's will can be done on earth as it is in heaven. [00:08:32]    Yes, that means making disciples as we go about the work that God has given us to do. Yes, it means discipling our kids within our homes. But it also means cultivating beauty in the world. Because Revelation 21 says that when we do, we are scratching off a glimpse of the day when beauty will reign supreme over the face of the earth.   It means doing work with excellence, because Isaiah 60 tells us there are works of cultural excellence present on the new earth, which boggles the minds of many people, right?    So I think the definition is really, really broad of what that means to do our work on earth as it is in heaven. But the key is love. The key is, out of looking at the cross and understanding the love that God has shown us in Christ, letting that love overflow out of our hearts and spill into everything we do, whether we eat or drink or whatever it is that we spend our time doing, to riff off of Paul in 1 Corinthians 10. "Do it all for the glory of God."  [00:09:36]    What's his glory? The perfect love of His Son. When we're modeling that, that's what I think it means to bring heaven to earth, as Jesus calls us to do.   Laura Dugger: Okay, so expand our understanding, though, because I know you've been on a journey learning about heaven here on earth. What are some findings and realizations that you've made as you've studied scripture?   Jordan Raynor: Number one, nobody, including Jesus Christ, is going to spend eternity in heaven. If what we mean by heaven is the present heaven, where, God forbid, if I die in the plane that I'm about to go on tonight, I will be with Jesus in the present heaven. Nobody's going to spend eternity in that heaven. Read Revelation 21, read Isaiah 60 through 65, it makes that abundantly clear.    Number two, contrary to our American caricature of heaven as a glorified retirement home, Isaiah 65 says, starting in verse 17, God says, "See, I'll create new heavens and a new earth. My chosen people will build houses and dwell in them, and they will long enjoy the work of their hands." [00:10:39]    So, number one, nobody's going to spend eternity in heaven. Number two, on the new earth, we will worship by singing yes, but also by working with our hands alongside the risen Christ. And then I would say, you know, number three, I think what I'm learning more and more is we tend to think of heaven exclusively as a place that we go to in the future. And that is true in a sense, right?    But it's also, as I said before, this state of affairs that's relevant and breaking into the present, breaking into our homes, breaking into our communities. The good news of the gospel is not that I sit around and wait to go to heaven when I die. The good news of the gospel is that I get to partner with Jesus in cultivating heaven on earth until I die, and He returns with heaven in hand to finish the work, right? [00:11:36]    So I think as we expand our vision beyond these half-truths about heaven that secular and, frankly, church culture have been peddling for years, with the whole truths that we see in Scripture, it vastly expands our purpose in the present as we seek to redeem our time. And I also think it expands our hope for the future, because a future with Christ where He has truly made all things new and I get to long enjoy the work of my hands with Him is way more exciting to me, and way more importantly, way more biblical than endless harps and hammocks in the clouds. Way more exciting.   Laura Dugger: Absolutely. And then if you'd have to say what that means for us now, like on a regular Thursday afternoon, can you make it really practical?    Jordan Raynor: Yeah. I think it means, number one, you can have a whole lot more purpose in your work and feel much more alive doing the work, whether that's changing diapers or making widgets on your computer. [00:12:37] Because, listen, if earth is our temporary home, as Carrie Underwood likes to say — I love you, Carrie Underwood. I do — then matter doesn't matter, right? Like matter doesn't matter. And my work with matter doesn't matter.   And if that's true, less than 1% of my time matters for eternity. Because I'm willing to bet that our listeners spend less than 1% of their time on spiritual work like evangelism and prayer. But if earth will one day be our perfect and permanent home, then matter has to matter greatly to God. And my spiritual and super material and earthly work has to matter. And if that's true, then 100% of my time matters for eternity. And so what's the response?   I love that you brought up redeeming your time. Redeeming your time is the response. If 100% of my time matters for eternity, I have greater hope for the future, I have greater purpose in the present, and I'm much more motivated to redeem all of my time, to look at every single one of my minutes that I have living in this age as opportunities to glorify God and make things matter in the grand scheme of eternity because I understand that it does matter, and it's not all going to burn up in the end. [00:13:46]    So that's one of the practical responses. We can get uber, uber practical, talking about redeeming your time and how exactly to do that. But at a theological level, if you hold to this idea that earth is our temporary home, you're really saying that 99.9% of your time doesn't matter in the grand scheme of eternity. That's deeply depressing. And praise God, it's also deeply unbiblical.   Laura Dugger: Okay. So a few follow-up questions with that then as well. So all of this matters and is eternally valuable and valuable in this moment. What about our choices then where you could be numbing out on Netflix all night or Instagram or whatever social media, or pouring excellence into the work that you're doing or your family or something more significant. What's the difference between those two options if everything matters?   Jordan Raynor: Everything has the opportunity to matter. Everything matters in the sense that God's going to judge every minute that we spend. [00:14:48] But listen, you could have two people with the exact same job, exact same stage of life, and one of them is wasting it in the grand scheme of eternity.   It matters in the sense that God's going to count it. But we can certainly make our lives matter more for eternity based on how we steward those minutes. Christians have lost this doctrine that Paul makes very clear that every single minute we spend in this life will be judged. Our soul will not be judged. Our soul has been judged (past tense) based on what Christ did on the cross. Praise God, there's no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.   But every believer will stand before the beam of seed of judgment to give an account for how we live this life. And those of us who wasted this life binging Netflix infinitely, you're still going to enter the kingdom of heaven if you were trusting in Christ alone for the forgiveness of your sins. But don't expect a whole lot of rewards when you show up there, right?   The ones who are going to be awarded with treasures in heaven that Jesus talked about, with crowns, with increased job responsibilities on the new earth, see the parable of the minas, are those of us who, like Paul, expended ourselves, spent with all the energy we have to make Christ known in what we make and how we do it and how we live our lives and how we do our work. [00:16:01] That's a response, is to get off of the couch and to get in the game of scratching off glimpses of heaven on earth in the present.   Laura Dugger: I love that. Yes and amen. Somebody previously on The Savvy Sauce called me spicy for asking questions like this. I don't intend it in a controversial way.   Jordan Raynor: Listen, if we're not going to talk about these things, why talk about anything at all? I love spicy questions. Come on.   Laura Dugger: Okay. So I would just love to hear your perspective, Jordan, especially because you have immersed yourself in the word of God and obviously you have the Spirit of God living inside you as well. So when you've wrestled with these ideas, do you find a difference in how this applies to men and women? And I'm specifically thinking about Genesis and work. And I can ask some more follow-up questions, but what would you say to that?   Jordan Raynor: Oh man, I love this question. [00:17:00] I don't get asked this question very much. Listen, is there a distinction? Sure. But not much of one. Adam and Eve were both called to work the garden and to take care of it as partners together in Genesis 1 and 2.    There are tons of women throughout scripture who are celebrated for their engagement in the first commission to fill the earth, so do it and rule. I think maybe the most poignant of them is Luke chapter 8. Luke chapter 8 says, name specific women who were, quote, "helping to support them —it's referring to Jesus and His disciples — out of their own means," end quote.    And based on what we know about Mary Magdalene and some of these other characters. I don't think they had means before they followed Jesus. So the implication is these women went to work, creating value in the marketplace to support Jesus and His followers. [00:18:00]    So all throughout scripture... I'll give you one more. Gosh. You want a case study that celebrates working women? Just go read the book of Exodus, right? Exodus 1 starts with Pharaoh who's looking around and fearful of these Hebrew boys. Why? Because he wasn't afraid of Hebrew girls because they represented no threat to him, right? He's like, Ah, no, it's the boys who are going to rise up and fight against me.    But who does Yahweh use to thwart Pharaoh's plans? Two midwives, working professionals, and a whole bunch of other women all throughout the book of Exodus. If you can't tell, I'm a raging Jesus feminist with three daughters under my roof right now. And so I love that you asked this question.   There are certainly distinctions. And listen, we got to be careful here. There are differences in genders. God-appointed gender. God appointed differences in leadership within the home and within the church, right, which is not popular outside of the church. [00:19:01] But I can't get around God's word here. But both men and women are called all throughout scripture to roll up them sleeves and work hard at the work of the Lord of cultivating creation for His glory and the good of others.   Laura Dugger: And now a brief message from our sponsor.    [00:19:21] <music>   Sponsor: Sam Leman Chevrolet in Eureka has been owned and operated by the Bertschi family for over 25 years. A lot has changed in the car business since Sam and Stephen's grandfather, Sam Leman, opened his first Chevrolet dealership over 55 years ago. If you visit their dealership today, though, you'll find that not everything has changed. They still operate their dealership like their grandfather did, with honesty and integrity.    Sam and Stephen understand that you have many different choices in where you buy or service your vehicle. This is why they do everything they can to make the car-buying process as easy and hassle-free as possible. They are thankful for the many lasting friendships that began with a simple "Welcome to Sam Lemans". Their customers keep coming back because they experience something different.   I've known Sam and Stephen and their wives my entire life, and I can vouch for their character and integrity, which makes it easy to highly recommend you check them out today. Your car-buying process doesn't have to be something you dread. So come see for yourself at Sam Leman in Chevrolet in Eureka. Sam and Stephen would love to see you, and they appreciate your business.    Learn more at their website, LemanEureka.com, or visit them on Facebook by searching for Sam Leman Eureka. You can also call them at (309) 467-2351. Thanks for your sponsorship.    [00:20:42] <music>   Laura Dugger: I think something I've been wrestling with lately is I wonder what lies Satan is whispering that we're not even aware of. And I think one piece is that it's sinful or unbiblical for women to work, especially to work outside the home. And I know God has a different call on everyone's life. But yeah, could you speak to that? We have four daughters. You have three daughters. This is-   Jordan Raynor: Oh my gosh, if I'm Satan, if I'm Satan, I would love nothing more than to convince 50% of the image of God not to bear God's image outside of the four walls of my home. That sounds like a pretty good strategy. That sounds like a killer strategy, right?   And listen, don't take my opinion for it. Don't take Laura's opinion for it. Go read the Word. I think when you open up God's Word, you're going to see that a lot of these... it's going to expose the lies. [00:21:43] By the way, Satan doesn't just peddle lies through nonbelievers. Just as frequently, I think we could say, Satan is peddling lies through well-intentioned believers. Lies about heaven and the new earth that we just talked about. Lies about work that I grew up believing as we talked about in the beginning of this. And I think lies about the role that women can joyfully and enthusiastically play working inside and outside the home for God's glory and the good of others.   Laura Dugger: So well said. I just completely agree that it's a both-and. They think some people are called inside the home and that is a worthy work, and some are not.   Jordan Raynor: 100%. By the way, my wife works full-time in the home. That is a noble calling that she's chosen for this season. And I'm so appreciative of that. But there have been other seasons where she hasn't chosen that. Blessed be the name of the Lord.   We're so obsessed with black... we're all Pharisees. [00:22:45] We love adding extra regulations and rules on top of God's Word, this extra-biblical junk to make ourselves feel superior to one another. And I think when we get back to the Word, we find a lot more freedom than we find in our churches and our pharisaical structures.   Laura Dugger: Okay, so then you and your wife, I'd love to hear the ages of your daughters and how you two are engaging with them and teaching or discipling them on topics like this.   Jordan Raynor: I've been married to Kara for 15 years now. She's the love of my life. I love her dearly. And we got three little girls. So Ellison is 10, Kate is 8, and Emery, we adopted at birth almost five years ago. It'll be five years, one month from today.   And yeah, discipling them is a challenge and a joy. I think the hardest part is just redeeming the time and making space for intentional time with them. [00:23:50] And we can talk about how we do that if you're interested.   But, you know, practically what discipleship looks like in our home is every morning around the breakfast table, I'm there with the girls memorizing God's word. And not just memorize it, but really talking about it. So take it a week, right? It's like, okay, we love because He first loved us. Who's He? What does that mean? How did Christ show that love to us? And what does it look like practically for us to show that love to others?   So scripture memorization and discussion of the scriptures is a big part of it. Don't hear me saying we do family devotionals. We don't. We're not that put together. We're not that formal. It's really just taking a passage of scripture and hiding it in their hearts and trying to make it as practical and actionable for the day as possible.   Then, two, we talk with our kids a lot. As much as we can, we are pointing them to God and His goodness in regular conversations. It may be specific studies. I'm writing books for kids. So I wrote a book called The Creator in You about the call to create that we see in Genesis 1. [00:24:51] I'm about to publish a second one called The Royal in You about ruling and working with Jesus on the new earth. So we're constantly talking about those themes.    And then also looking for really tactical physical things within the house to point them to Jesus. I'll give one example, then I'll shut up, and or you can follow up on anything you want. I was really convicted by a friend and again, this is at the risk of sounding pharisaical. I'm not saying this is a rule you got to do. This is just working for my family.   I said the word "awesome" like three times in a conversation. He's like, "Hey, only God is awesome." It really stopped me and maybe take stock of my words. I'm like, "Man, there should be a word awesome, amazing, whatever you want, right, whatever works for you works, but there should be a word that we reserve for God alone, right? Even holy. We talk about us being holy as God is holy, right?    And so we just decided we're going to reserve "awesome" for God. [00:25:50] And we put a jar, kind of like a swear jar in people's houses. We put a “not awesome” jar in the middle of our living room. And every time somebody says something's awesome, other than God, we have to put a buck in it. And then we donate that money to an orphanage that we love supporting.   But Laura, that sounds silly and really trivial, but guess what? In the last week, it's given me, I don't know, 15 opportunities to talk about how Jesus is better than any creative thing. Man, I'll do that all day long. I'm constantly looking for little things like that to latch on to, to talk about God's goodness, to talk about His awesomeness, and talk about the role that He's called us to play in bringing heaven to earth.   Laura Dugger: Wow. No, that doesn't sound silly at all. Actually, it just is in line with these themes, intentional in our work, intentional in our time, intentional in our words, and that matters.   Jordan Raynor: I love John Tyson and his book, The Intentional Father. [00:26:54] I'm the overly intentional father. I am too intentional. And that will show up in this conversation, I promise.   Laura Dugger: No, we celebrate that around here for sure. That was kind of my follow-up question you just alluded to, being intentional. Was it with getting time with your daughters? Do you and Kara have a system for that?   Jordan Raynor: Yeah. Yeah, we do. Listen, this isn't going to come as a surprise to anybody listening. Our phones are enemy number one in our fight for deep work that we do in front of the laptop, but also the deep work of discipleship with our kids. And maybe the biggest game changer of my life and discipling my kids is that my kids never, almost never see me on my phone inside of my house. Outside my house for direction, sure.    I track this. I log every day that they see me. The last 90 days, my kids have seen me on my phone one time, inside of my house. [00:27:52] You better believe they know that dad loves them, but more importantly, it gives me more intentional space to be with them without being distracted.    And I know that sounds impossible to listeners. So let me give you five steps for cultivating this. If you want to do this, you're like, man, yeah, I would love to put my phone down for an hour and not think about it. Five steps. It's really simple to do, but it's going to take a lot of courage.    Number one, choose ahead of time when you want to check your texts and emails and asynchronous messages, right? It could be every hour. It could be on a, maybe say it's 10 a.m., 12 p.m., 2 p.m., 4 p.m., 6 p.m. That's it. Whatever.    Step two, build a list of VIPs who will have access to it all times and not just those predetermined times. So my VIPs are my wife, my kids' school, my assistant. It's pretty much it. Step three, pull out your phone and add all of your VIPs to your Favorites list if you're an iOS user or "Your people" list, if you're an Android user, that way, when you use just the basic out-of-the-box, do not disturb settings on your phone, only calls from those people come through. [00:28:57] Not their texts, not their emails, not every Instagram notification of people liking yet another picture of your dog, just phone calls from your VIPs.   Step four, you got to set clear expectations with your VIPs about your new response time. You send them a very simple message like this. I actually give you the template in the Redeeming Your Time book, but this is the gist. "Hey, I'm trying to be more focused with my kids at home." I know by the way, also at work, especially if you're sending this to your boss. "Here's how you can help me from now on. I'm only checking emails, texts, etc., at X, Y, and Z times. However, you're a VIP in my life. And so if you need me more urgently than that, do not text me, I won't see it. Don't email me. I won't see it. But if you call me on my cell, I'll answer every single time that I can."   Last step, step five, put your phone away for an hour and a half at a time. When you're with your kids, keep your phone out of sight, out of mind. For mine, I keep it in my master bathroom. It's on "do not disturb". I turn the ringer on. [00:29:58]    And here's what happens. I actually spent two and a half hours apart from my phone at nighttime from 5 to seven 30 p.m. every single night. And functionally what I've done is I've turned my cell phone into a landline, right? If the phone rings, I can go in there and see what VIP is calling and decide whether or not I want to answer it. But in all that other time, I am fully focused on my kids and the conversations I'm having with them about their day.    Laura, it's been a total, total game changer for me and for thousands and thousands of readers of Redeeming Your Time. This is one of 32 practices in the book, and I'm willing to bet it's probably in the top five of reader favorites.   Laura Dugger: Well, and I can see why that's incredible. And I'm curious, Jordan, do you know Joey Odom with Aro?   Jordan Raynor: I know Joey. I talked to Joey yesterday. I love Joey Odom.   Laura Dugger: Okay. He's wonderful. So we will link to an episode that he did on The Savvy Sauce. [00:31:00] If you're looking for more practical ways as well, like you said, putting your phone away, he just can contribute. I think that partners nicely.   Jordan Raynor: Yeah. And if you don't know Aro, go check out the episode. But basically it's an app on your phone. It's also a physical box that you can put the phone in. And it basically gamifies what I just explained.    So instead of me being accountable to care of my kids, I could theoretically share with my friends, "Hey, I spent two and a half hours today apart from my phone. Here's a screenshot of the evidence. I love what Joey and their team are doing. It's incredible.   Laura Dugger: And like you said, this is just one of the helpful suggestions in Redeeming Your Time. My husband and I have both benefited so much from that book.   Jordan Raynor: I love it. Thank you.   Laura Dugger: Well, yes. And thank you. But I'd love for you to walk us through the topics and the questions that we ask ourselves as we metaphorically go floor by floor through the building of intentional living.   Jordan Raynor: Yeah. Yeah. It's a great question. [00:32:00] You're asking about chapter four of the book, where I'm talking about prioritizing our yeses. And we hear about all these different terms when it comes to setting priorities. We talk about mission statements and callings and long-term goal, whatever. I just found it necessary for myself to bake the cake and put it all together. Be like, okay, give me one simple framework for thinking about all these things and how they connect to each other.    And so the metaphor I use in the book is this five-story building where on the fifth floor, the very top of this hotel, whatever you envision this building being is your mission in life that is over everything else. Listen, there are people selling books left and right, helping you discern the mission for your life. I'll let you off the hook for having to buy those. Listen, you didn't make yourself and so you don't get to choose the mission of your life. God does. Here's the mission of your life: to glorify God, period, full stop, right?   Now God in this goodness has given us a lot of freedom to choose the callings on the fourth floor of how we will live out that mission. But that's your mission, right? [00:33:05] So mission, fifth floor; fourth floor, next level down is callings. So I am called right now to be a husband, to be a father, and to be the CEO of Jordan Raynor company and create this content. That's it. I've chosen three callings, right?    The next level down are long-term goals. This is level three of the building, okay? Long-term goals. I am the biggest believer in the world in setting the biggest possible long-term goals, because in my experience, that's what helps me say no. If I have really small goals, I am getting sucked into the thick of thin things every single time.    So I would argue Christ's power should be setting the biggest long-term goals on the planet. By long-term, I'm talking at least a year, more likely three to five years, setting those long-term goals for each of your callings.    Then the next level down are short-term goals, which whatever works for you works. Maybe you want to set goals on a weekly basis, monthly basis. I love the quarterly cadence. [00:34:05] Every three months, looking at my long-term goals and setting quarterly goals that are attached to that.    And then the bottom floor, the first floor of this metaphorical building are what I call projects and actions. This is the tactical stuff. This is your to-do list born out of mission calling, long-term goals, short-term goals.    Okay. What are the specific projects and actions that I need to execute against over the next seven days, over the next quarter to make progress towards those goals? And then, as you know, Laura, there's a secret sixth floor to this building, which it doesn't deserve to be called a floor. It's the basement.    And this is what I call posteriorities. And this might be the most important. This is everything else that falls outside of what's already on my plate professionally and what falls under those short-term goals. Everything else goes into the basement of my mind in this metaphorical building. [00:35:05]    And so in my to-do list app, what I call my commitment tracking system, all of those projects and actions literally go in a separate folder called "Someday" that I only look at every 90 days. Once every 90 days, I look at that, decide if there's anything I want to pull out and work on over the next 90 days. But for the other, what is that, 89 days and a quarter, all of those things are out of sight, out of mind, so that I can fully focus on the work that I believe that God has called me to execute against over the next three months.   Laura Dugger: So good. Again, and these 90 days, let's zoom in on that. We also share a passion for the quarterly time, even the brain science behind it, that your brain can only be reminded and to hang on to a goal for 90 days. What does yours actually look like in these 90 days? Can you give us some examples in your own life of a goal for your calling and then ground floor what that looks like? [00:36:08]    Jordan Raynor: Yeah, I would be happy to. I'll show you some quarterly goals for the family. I got personal and professional short-term goals, quarterly goals. Here's a personal one. I really love the OKR framework, which if you're not familiar with it, Google made this famous, stands for objectives and key results.   So objectives are aspirational. They're the what you want to accomplish. And the key results are measurable and they tell you whether or not you reached the what. So, for example, this quarter, personally, objective. Strengthen my point of view on youth sports and whether or not it is in line with our family's goal to love like Jesus.    This one's going to hit for our audience. I have a feeling. Key result number one: read three credible articles from youth sports advocates and three articles from Detractors. [00:37:10]    Key result number two, post questions on this topic to at least two godly friends who have had their kids in serious youth sports and two who have intentionally chosen not to.    And then key result number three, draft a summary of my point of view on this topic and deliver it to Kara by December 31st.   All right. Let me give you a professional example. In this quarter, yeah, I'll share this, whatever. This is a little inside baseball, but it's fun. I can't say the name of it, but the objective is to sell my first TV show to Netflix or Amazon.    We're currently shopping a project right now. I actually only have one key result for this and it's to get one yes or three nos from A-list actors to agree to play the starring role in this show. So that's how I'll know. That's the progress I'm going to make towards that goal.    So that's just a couple of examples from my life. I obsess over this quote from Bill Gates though. I think this would be helpful for our listeners. [00:38:10] Gates once said that we human beings have the tendency to vastly overestimate what we can accomplish in a short period of time, i.e. a quarter, and vastly underestimate what we can do in a decade with what Eugene Peterson called long obedience in the same direction, right?   So if you take one thing from this conversation on goals, take that from Bill Gates. What you can get done in three months is virtually nothing, right? So set your goals accordingly. But what you can get done in a decade with long obedience in the same direction, you're not doing it, God's doing it through you is incredible.   Laura Dugger: I just wanted to let you know, there are now multiple ways to give when you visit TheSavvySauce.com. We now have a donation button on our website and you can find it under the donate page, which is under the tab entitled Support. Our mailing address is also provided if you would prefer to save us the processing fee and send a check that is tax deductible. [00:39:14]    Either way, you'll be supporting the work of Savvy Sauce charities and helping us continue to reach the nations with the good news of Jesus Christ. Make sure you visit TheSavvySauce.com today. Thanks for your support.   These examples are so helpful. I love practical examples because it helps me envision how to begin applying what I want to put into practice after a conversation like this one. My husband, Mark, and I will oftentimes reflect and look back on times that have been transformational in our lives. Typically, it's from practical application, you have to apply it, that leads to transformation. So, Jordan, will you give us maybe three to five habits or time savers or general best ways to steward our time?   Jordan Raynor: Oh, man, I'd love to. Honestly, the biggest one for me I've already shared, which is just taking control of when you check your messages. I cannot stress that enough. [00:40:19]    Let me give you a couple others. One, you want to do your most exceptional work, you've got to be getting a seven to eight-hour nightly sleep opportunity. The easiest way to practically do it is to just set a consistent bedtime. Most people have a fixed time at which they wake up, so it's simple math, right? Subtract from that, go back eight hours, that's your bedtime.   Gosh, you might not like the science. Trust me, I don't like the science, but the science is settled on this one. Most, 99% of human beings need seven to eight hours of sleep at night. That's a game-changer for me.    Honestly, weekly Sabbath has been a game-changing habit for me and my family that I think has made us much more productive in our goals.    I'll give you another one. Do one new thing at a time. In your work, in your life, you probably have a lot of recurring responsibilities based on work that you've created over the years. [00:41:19] With whatever time you have left over, the worst mistake, in my experience, that you can make is to try to do five new initiatives at once. You do one new thing at a time until it's done, and then when it's done, you move on to the next thing.    I'm trying to think of some other ones from the book. Yeah, I'll say this one. This is one of my favorite practices. It takes two seconds to start, but again, it takes a lot of courage. Quit the news cold turkey and let your friends curate the news for you. Why? How is this connected to time management, people ask me?    It could not be more relevant because all of this external noise is creating a lot of internal noise that blocks your ability to be loving, to think, to be creative, and listen to the voice of God. I know because I was the ultimate news junkie until eight years ago when I quit cold turkey. You know what happened when I quit cold turkey? Nothing. Nothing negative happened. [00:42:21]    What did happen is my friends started telling me about everything that I cared about, voluntarily. They have no idea they're doing this, but they're bringing me this. I spot-check from time to time. I'll go to CNN.com and say, did I really miss anything? Nope. 99% of the news is still totally irrelevant to my life and work. Great. Man, that's been a game-changer for me, Laura.   Laura Dugger: I did love that one about let your friends curate the news for you. Just one other follow-up. I want to circle back to the quarterly. Just as we're talking about practical application, how can someone start doing, if that's their first goal is to maybe plan something quarterly? How do you have a system in place to revisit these things every 90 days and what does that look like?   Jordan Raynor: That's a great question. I take a quarterly retreat. Ideally, this is for at least one night. Sometimes when things are really crazy, I just have to take a day to go do it. In that quarterly retreat, I'm doing a few things. [00:43:20]    First, I am just journaling the game that God has already produced in my work, the good things He's already done over the last three months.   Two, I'm just taking time to worship Him and praise Him for that. Remember that not only did I not deserve anything for the last three months, I certainly don't deserve anything over the next three months. It's putting me in this humble position of recognizing that the only thing I deserve is death due my sin. God has given me Christ and way more, and that puts me in a much healthier heart position to dream about what's next.    Then third step, I just journal off the top of my head without looking at any prompts what I think is most important over the next three months. I don't look at my to-do list because what's most important should be readily apparent to me. I shouldn't have to look at anything, right?    Number four, I review journal entries from the last 90 days as well as my to-do list to refine that journal entry about what I thought was most important. Maybe I forgot, oh yeah, Jordan, you're releasing a book in the next quarter. [00:44:25] We got to get ready for that or six months from now, whatever it is.    Then five, I am taking a first stab at drafting those objectives and key results. My rule is no more than five objectives in a given quarter and no more than five key results for each objective, which could mean 25 key results.    Most of the time for me, I wind up at one to three objectives total and one to, oh man, like 10 max key results in a quarter. Most recently, I've had between one and three key results, that's it, that I'm focused on the next 90 days.   Oh, by the way, I've been crushing it. The fewer key results that I'm setting, the quicker I'm getting my goals done. The last two quarters, I've hit my goals early for the quarter and I've had to go into that someday folder and pull new things out because I've gotten everything done. That feels great. [00:45:28]    Laura Dugger: That's incredible. That does feel great to get to check that off and go to the next thing. I want to see how people can apply this, but first also, maybe Sabbath is more so something that grabbed them. So can you share just a little glimpse of what that looks like? Because you said that's one of your most impactful habits.   Jordan Raynor: Oh yeah, absolutely. Sabbath starts with work, right? You got to work hard and work well if you want to be able to rest well. Maybe helpful to think about this, I'm doing all the work for two days in one. So we have chosen to enjoy the gift of Sabbath. Notice I didn't say observe Sabbath because that connotes life-sucking legalism.    We enjoy the gift of Sabbath from Saturday dinner time until Sunday dinner time. So Saturday afternoon, we are going through our Sabbath prep checklist. That includes cleaning up the house, picking everything up so we're not distracted, packing bags and waters for church the next day, making a plan for Sabbath. [00:46:33] So who do we want to hang out with? Texting and coordinating those plans ahead of time so we're not attached to our phones on Sabbath itself, doing laundry, running the dishwasher.   And then when we get to the end, I'm sending my phone on a 24-hour vacation. So I mentioned spending two and a half hours apart from my phone each night. On Sabbath, it is on airplane mode for 24 hours.   Then we kick off Sabbath by just feasting. So Sabbath to us is... I love how Kevin DeYoung put it. It's an island of get-to and a sea of have-to. We try to do nothing on that I have to-do list and only things on that get to-do list.   So that starts a feasting on some of our favorite foods. We get takeout. So cleanup's really easy. So we're Chewy's Mexican or good Chinese food, whatever. We light a candle to kick off Sabbath so that it always smells like Sabbath in my house, which is usually pumpkin pecan waffles, even when it's like July in Florida, which makes no sense. [00:47:33]    Then Saturday night's pretty chill, watching a little bit of TV with the kids, whatever. They're going to bed. On Sunday, this is my one day a week where I sleep in. My wife sleeps in the other six days of the week. I sleep in, Kara gets up with the kids. It's the one day a week of the week where they get to watch a full-length movie, which they're super pumped about, and don't judge me, drink coffee. So they get to drink coffee on Sabbath.    My kids wake up super early, so they can finish the movie before church. On the way to church is one of my favorite traditions where we stop and get donuts on the way and the whole drive we're talking about what we're thankful for from the past week. So just looking back, what are we grateful for? And then what do we want to adore God for about His character based on what He's done and what we've seen Him do and what we're thankful for the past week?   We then go feast on the word with our church family and then come back, have lunch at the house. We don't do the lunch after church thing to us. That's a little exhausting. [00:48:31] So we come home, have lunch here.    And then Sunday afternoons are pretty chill. A lot of times we're just playing games or swimming in the pool. This past Sunday, we went for a walk and let the kids climb some trees. But just a day to slow down and catch up to our souls and just be and remind ourselves that we are loved and valued, even when we're not being productive, that our heavenly Father does not need us. He wants us to quote my friend, [Scott Jotani? 00:49:05] And man, it's been a total game-changer.    I'll end with this. I saw a mentor who I hadn't seen in years. I think this was last summer. And we were on vacation in Rhode Island. I talked to my mentor for about an hour and he texted me after I left his house and he's like, "Hey, you seem way more rested than I saw you the last five years ago." And it's not vacation rest. He called that out. He's like, "This is not vacation rest. What is this?" I was like, "It's Sabbath." He's like, "That's what I thought. That's what I thought."   People can feel it. People know when they're in the presence of somebody who is living and working out of a Sabbath rest. So I would encourage you to try it. Treat it as an experiment. Don't say, "We're going to do this for the rest of our lives. Try it for four weeks. Try it for six weeks. Give it a shot. And I think you'll be blown away at how healthy it is, both for your soul and for the goals that you're chasing after the rest of the week. [00:50:10]    Laura Dugger: Okay. Challenge accepted. So great. So then bringing this home for someone, if they need to get quiet, get with the Lord, and just see what's bubbling up for them, do you have any other recommended Scripture, places to start, or questions for reflection or anything just to point us in the right direction?   Jordan Raynor: Yeah. I would just point you to the Gospels and the way of Jesus. We read Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John almost exclusively for their theology and the ethic of Jesus and they certainly have a lot to say about that. But as my friend John Mark Comer has pointed out, the Gospels are also biographies of Jesus' life. And I don't know about you, but I want to redeem my time in the model of my Redeemer. He is the key to the whole thing.    By the way, even non-Christians can get on board with this. I'll tell non-Christians all the time, like, hey, Christian or not... pretty hard to dispute that Jesus was the most productive person to ever walk the earth. [00:51:09] And we know how He managed His time. And no, the Gospels don't show Him with a to-do list or a smartphone, but they show Him dealing with distractions at work. One time a guy literally dropped through the roof over Jesus' head while He was working and preaching. Unless that's happening to you, you're not more distracted than Jesus was, right?    They show Him seeking to be busy without being hurried. They show Him having to dissent from the kingdom of noise to think. And so, man, you want to redeem your time toward eternal ends? Look to the author of time, Jesus of Nazareth in the Gospel biographies.    Laura Dugger: This has been incredible to lay the foundation for our own lives, which is great to put into practice first. But as we're tying it all up to, how can we pass along this wisdom to our children?   Jordan Raynor: Yeah. Number one, just talk about the biblical narrative of work and productivity that your kids are probably not hearing in Sunday school. [00:52:11] I know because I see the Sunday school curriculum. I'm an elder in our church. They're not seeing it.    Point them to Genesis 1 and 2. Point them to the fact that we worship a God who works and created us to work and be productive and redeem our time in His image. And you can do that through Genesis 1 and 2. You can fast forward to Revelation 21 and 22 and Isaiah 65 that talks about work and productivity for eternity on the new earth.   Then I do have a couple of picture books that I wrote for kids as a tool, as a resource for you to communicate the why of redeeming your time, the why of work to your kids. They're called The Creator in You, which is this artistic interpretation of Genesis 1 and 2, and The Royal in You, which is the opposite book into scripture in Revelation 21 and 22.    And my prayer for this book is that it will... your kids may not admit this to you, but if they're anything like I was as a kid, if they're anything like my kids used to be, your kids view heaven with confusion, boredom, and maybe even fear. [00:53:18] And that's tragic because God's word replaces all of that with biblical clarity, excitement, and hope.    And that's my prayer for this book, that based on God's word, it would expand the vision of kids and, frankly, grownups to view heaven in the new earth with that clarity, excitement, and hope, all to God's greater glory and our greater joy.   Laura Dugger: A worthy vision indeed. We will certainly link to those resources in the show notes. Jordan, this time has been so enjoyable, but I still have one question for you because we are called The Savvy Sauce because "savvy" is synonymous with practical knowledge or discernment. And so as my final question for you today, what is your Savvy Sauce?   Jordan Raynor: Yeah, honestly, I've shared a lot of the practical answers to that. We started the conversation theological, went practical, let's end theological. My savvy sauce lately is that I spend a lot of time thinking about where I see myself professionally in five million years, not five years like you were asked in a job interview. [00:54:30]   Because again, God's word promises that we will work free from the curse of sin. And here's why, and here's how this connects to redeeming the time. The more that I've meditated on that promise of long enjoying the work of my hands, I am far less hurried in the present.   Because I spent years, Laura, worrying about finishing my life's work, of getting it all done. I got to get past this business because I still want to do X, Y, and Z in my life, right? But knowing that I'm going to have eternity to work for God's glory, I am free from all of those burdens and just so much less hurried because here's what's going to happen.   When I die with unfinished symphonies, and all of us will die with unfinished symphonies and to-do lists, either God is number one, going to tap somebody else on the shoulder and have them pick up that work and finish it, praise God. [00:55:29] Number two, He's going to finish that work by himself with no human involvement, praise God. Or number three, when I arise from the nap that is death, God in his goodness and generosity will put that unfinished symphony back in my hands and give me the joy of finishing it free from the curse of sin, praise God.   Either way, I don't lose. If the things on my to-do list are on God's to-do list, He will finish them. And as I've thought about that and work on the new earth, it has just been radical in slowing me down and recognizing that eternity is now in session and I don't have to finish it all before I die. It's been a tremendous gift that the Lord has given me. So I would encourage our listeners to do the same.   Laura Dugger: Yes. Well, Jordan, clearly God has gifted you with being a vision caster, a visionary, a leader, and I just appreciate this conversation is oozed with your love of Kara and your daughters and our Lord and has been, like you said, theological and practical. [00:56:41] I just have learned so much. So thank you for being intentional about redeeming your time. It really is a way that you are loving others and loving God well, and I just appreciate you. So thank you for being my guest.   Jordan Raynor: Thank you, Laura.   Laura Dugger: One more thing before you go. Have you heard the term "gospel" before? It simply means good news. And I want to share the best news with you. But it starts with the bad news. Every single one of us were born sinners, but Christ desires to rescue us from our sin, which is something we cannot do for ourselves.   This means there is absolutely no chance we can make it to heaven on our own. So, for you and for me, it means we deserve death and we can never pay back the sacrifice we owe to be saved. We need a Savior.   But God loved us so much, He made a way for His only Son to willingly die in our place as the perfect substitute. [00:57:43] This gives us hope of life forever in right relationship with Him. That is good news.   Jesus lived the perfect life we could never live and died in our place for our sin. This was God's plan to make a way to reconcile with us so that God can look at us and see Jesus. We can be covered and justified through the work Jesus finished if we choose to receive what He has done for us.   Romans 10:9 says that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.    So would you pray with me now? Heavenly Father, thank You for sending Jesus to take our place. I pray someone today right now is touched and chooses to turn their life over to You. Will You clearly guide them and help them take their next step in faith to declare You as Lord of their life? We trust You to work and change lives now for eternity. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.    If you prayed that prayer, you are declaring Him for me, so me for Him. You get the opportunity to live your life for Him. And at this podcast, we're called The Savvy Sauce for a reason. We want to give you practical tools to implement the knowledge you have learned. So you ready to get started?    First, tell someone. Say it out loud. Get a Bible. The first day I made this decision, my parents took me to Barnes & Noble and let me choose my own Bible. I selected the Quest NIV Bible, and I love it. You can start by reading the Book of John.    Also, get connected locally, which just means tell someone who's a part of a church in your community that you made a decision to follow Christ. I'm assuming they will be thrilled to talk with you about further steps, such as going to church and getting connected to other believers to encourage you.    We want to celebrate with you too, so feel free to leave a comment for us here if you did make a decision to follow Christ. We also have show notes included where you can read Scripture that describes this process.    Finally, be encouraged. Luke 15:10 says, "In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents." The heavens are praising with you for your decision today.    If you've already received this good news, I pray that you have someone else to share it with today. You are loved and I look forward to meeting you here next time.